Who's to blame for our sinking metros? Big debate Rajdeep Sardesai's show

Highest single day rainfall in 88 years. Delhi airport terminal roof collapses, Cab driver crushed to death, Capital on its knees. Even Latin zone not immune. India sinking metros. Hello and welcome. Those images tell you our special focus today. A few hours of rain have exposed the national capital, the national capital regions crumbling infrastructure yet again. But it was never as bad as it was as Delhi experienced its heaviest rainfall within a 24 hour span over the last 80 years. A portion of the roof at the Delhi International Airport fell tragically killing one cab driver, injuring 8. From the Latvian zone where all our VVIP politicians live, to residential areas to suburbs like Guru Gram, the whole National Capital Territory found itself knee deep in water and dare I say, all at sea, not just Delhi. In recent days, we've seen waterlogging in Ayodhya near the Ram Mandir and a roof collapse at the Jabalpur airport. But nothing quite exposes the negligence quite like that roof collapse at the Delhi airport, which is counted among the best and busiest in the world. Tonight, in our special show with politicians and then with experts, we look at what is ailing our city. But first, we start with a report on the tragic Delhi airport mishap. Don't take your eyes off the screen. This is the Delhi International Airport, billed as one of the world's best. Early morning on Monday, the roof at Terminal One came crashing down, crushing an unsuspecting cab driver to instant death. Eight others are battling injuries. It was absolute mayhem at the airport as it failed to cope with a few hours of rain. This debris that you see behind me is the proof of as to what happened at that point in time. Unfortunately, one person has died because of this act accident, four are injured. That's what we are being told. And right now, safety audit of Terminal one of the IGI Airport is being done. The authorities have shut down the operation of the Terminal 1 airport. It has been completely evacuated in a way you can say. And only tomorrow morning when the safety audit will be done again. Only after that, the operations could continue here. Flight 2 and from Terminal One were cancelled. The Union Civil Aviation Minister, who recently took the charge, visited the airport to inspect the deadly collapse. We have asked the dial, Delhi International Airport Limited also is to do a verification inspection from their side. But we are not just leaving it up to themselves. The ministry, from the ministry we have DGCA also which underlooks the safety aspect. So they will also be supervisioning this inspection and they will also give us a report. And from our ministry side, I can assure you that this is taken as a very serious incident. An investigation has been ordered. The government has announced ₹20,00,000 for the family of the deceased. The opposition trained guns on the Narendra Modi government over the accident. Aaj Dilika airport Garna pani Rd. pay or garuk kandarana or Samvidhan Sadhan Parliament kandar completely bandoga electricity or SRH is ODI cumin say corrupted and it will cover or criminal negligence. The BJP hit back saying the roof that collapsed was built in 2009 during the UPA rule. Praful Patel, the Civil Aviation minister in 2009, who is now in the NDA, urged political parties not to politicize the accident. Ek emarat Pandora saal pehle Bani Pandora saltak apna kaam matlab mahase jadi tha. While the netas bicker over the collapsed roof at the Delhi airport, the accident has exposed the authorities at multiple levels. Don't take your eyes off the screen because what you see is living proof of criminal negligence that cost a human life. And all it took was a few hours of rain with Amit Bharadwaj in Delhi Bureau Report, India Today. So amidst those terrifying images, let's raise some big questions today. Who is to blame for our sinking metros? Is it time to redraw the smart city strategy? How to make our cities weatherproof? These are some of the questions I'll put to experts who will join me later on the show. But first, the political blame game, which has already begun. Who will be held accountable is the question I want to raise. Joining me now, Sanju Varma, the BJPS national spokesperson. Salman Source, Congress national spokesperson Akshay Marathi, AAM Aadmi Parties spokesperson appreciate all of you joining us. Let's start Sanju Varma with you. You're in the government, the Prime Minister and the government prides itself on creating world class infrastructure in our cities, talks about smart cities and then we see what happened. Those visuals horrifying at the Delhi airport and in other parts of the country. And its not isolated. We've seen with the Pragathi Maidan tunneled as well not too long ago, leaks developing. How do you respond? Is this claim of world class infrastructure jumla as the opposite position alleges the governor, the opposition saying this is criminal negligence? Rajdeep, thank you for having me on your show. I will answer your very pertinent question and before doing so, let me take the bull by the horns and address the elephant in the room. You asked me is the claim of world class infrastructure by the Modi government Jumla nahi Ji? Yeah, jumla nahi Rajdeep Ji. Because let's be very clear, beat the Navi Mumbai airport. The Shilaniyas was done way back in 1988 by Rajiv Gandhi. Finally, this will become a reality thanks to the Modi government in March 2025. The Bogi Bill bridge in 2002 was when the construction started. It was completed by the Modi government in 2018, the Bhupen Hazarika Sethu. The construction was started by the Congress LED up in 2011. It was finished by the Modi government in 2017. And I know you keep traveling to Mumbai on and off. The Mumbai Trans Harbor Link, one of the 12th longest sea bridges in the world, was conceived way back in 1972 by Pandit Nehru, which was brought to fruition by the Dublin Jim Sarkar of Narendra Modi and the Shinde Sena and Fadnavis LED government. And then let's stop. Can I bring you back? Can I bring you back though to what I asked you at the start, which is also accountability for what happens today, lack of maintenance. Do you blame the private operator? Who do you blame when things go wrong like they did with the Pragati Maidan Tunnel or where they go wrong with the airport? Can I answer? Yeah, please do. I heard you, Rajdeep. Can I answer? You're repeating the same facts you said. I will answer your question. Why are you getting so impatient with me? Please, please. Yes, I will now tell you one thing. Yes, the T1 part of the roof that collapsed, the canopy that collapsed. First and foremost, condolences to the disease and to the, you know, kit and kin of the victims. I'm sure the government will do the needful in terms of not only fixing accountability but ensuring that we don't have a repeat of what happened today. We all know that the P1 was inaugurated by the Manmohan Singh LED government way back in 2009. This was constructed by Lawson and Trugo and the contract for maintenance was given to GMR. So should I point fingers at the Congress? Yes. Should I point fingers at GMR for shoddy maintenance? Yes. Should I partly blame LNT? Perhaps. Should Modi government also take the owners? Partially yes. But I want to say one thing and I'm not going to be hypocritical about it. Media should ask us questions. Today, you're asking the Modi government for accountability because of what happened at the T1 in Delhi. But I don't see any accountability. When the Minto Bridge collapsed in 2020 and Arvind Kejriwal had given umpteen press conferences, spent hundreds of crores money on advertisement saying Minto bridge kelier credit Arvind Kejriwal for Jana Chahiye. Within 72 hours, a part of the Minto bridge collapse and Arvind Kejriwal started blaming the Modi government and the media started playing along. And I want to ask, in 2016, there was a bridge collapse in Kolkata at Girish Park. Media Kemumai Sevika Lagya 2017, There was a bridge collapse at Jalpaiguri in West Bengal. Media Kemumai Sevika Lagya 2018 There was a bridge collapse at Major Hut in West Bengal. Media Kemumai Sevika Lagya 2019. There is a bridge collapse at Durgapur in West Bengal. Media Kemumai Sevika Lagya 2021 Bridge collapse at Barakpur Vidya, Mumbai Sevika Lagya 2022 Bridge collapse at Anipur and Diamond Harbour in West Bengal. Media K Mumbai Sevika 23 So you're saying that you're you see, this is this is the problem. When the Kolkata bridge collapse took place a few years ago, the media was equally critical of the state government. I just want to just a minute, ma'am, just to tell you, just to tell you just today, another bridge has collapsed in Bihar. In fact, 30 new bridges have fallen down in Bihar in 2023 and 24 So we can go state by state. We can do water Boutri, but let me get the others. In Akshaya Marathi, you first respond. AAM Aadmi Party also surely has some responsibility when water logging takes place on the scale that it does in the national capital. As is being pointed out, when things go right, when you build a new bridge, you take all credit. When things don't go right, water logging, dieselting not taking place, drainage systems not in place, you've got to take the buck stops with you. You can't pass it on all the time to the Modi government. Undoubtedly anyone who is elected government has to take responsibility and to that extent I accept the AAM Aadmi Party responsibility. But let's be honest about what's happening in our country. We are facing a national catastrophe when it comes to our infrastructure. You look at what happened to the ATL Sethu, which was inaugurated right before the elections. It is already having severe damage. You look at the Ram Mandir roof, it is leaking the the tracks on the side terminal. The terminal side was just go ahead. No, no, ma'am, please. I am angry to show you on right. The Lok Sabha elections were announced. Even that terminal is inaugurated right before the elections, Radhebji. So we are facing a national crisis of infrastructure and I think there are three things that we need to be talking about #1 the value of human life has been reduced to nothing today. The person who died today deserves to get at least ₹1,00,00,000, their family deserves to get ₹1,00,00,000 in compensation because it is we cannot keep pointing fingers and assume that the people who are suffering cannot do not reserve any kind of support from the government. In Morbi, right before the elections in Gujarat, 150 people died in a bridge collapse. We need to compensate these people for what has happened. And not only the government, it is a contractor who should be held accountable and compensated for these issues #2 Rajiv Ji. We need to take seriously the issue of climate change. We have a government that does not believe in climate change. Mr. Modi has on record said it is our tendency to not take intense heat. That is the that is the call of climate change. He doesn't believe in climate change, but the fact that we are facing severe rain, rain storms, we are facing severe weather conditions across the country, needs our infrastructure to be made resilient. We have to focus on sustainability and resilient infrastructure. And that is what that is what requires some kind of national plan. It cannot happen in a silo, It cannot happen at the level of cities and states. The central government has to prepare some kind of national plan when it comes to infrastructure #3 Rajiv Ji, we have to ensure that politics cannot take over infrastructure and all the three projects. Atal Sethu, Ram Mandir and this Terminal 1 building were inaugurated right before the Lok Sabha election and I suspect that there was some level of hurry that was being pushed on to these contractors because the BJP government wanted to inaugurate before the election. How can we allow our infrastructure? OK for Atal Sethu, let me say that the cracks that have developed are on a side Rd., not on the main bridge. Obviously they are concerned any any crack would be a concern, particularly during monsoon. Yes, there have been leakages during the Ram and parts of the Ram Mandir. Abysmal condition also by Ayodhyas new roads in. They've also got into waterlogging. Jabalpur airport has collapsed. We have the Pragathi Maidan tunnel submerging. I mentioned 30 new bridges falling down in Bihar. We of course had the tragic Morbi bridge collapse. But you know the instinctive reaction Salman shows, Ma'am, just a minute. The instinctive reaction Salman shows is to suggest that this is criminal negligence or part of the Modi government. You'll recall its not the first time that we've had these kind of infrastructure collapses. You all were in power for 10 years. There were there were occasions then when we've had similar infrastructure collapses. This instinctive tendency to call it criminal negligence and corruption and blame the government. Here the private operator, for example, in T1 is primarily responsible, its his responsibility to ensure maintenance. They get paid a huge amount in terms of user fees by airport passengers more than 1000 crores a year. Raji, First of all, today it was a big tragedy. You know, all of us use this airport, you do it and I'm sure others on the panel do it. It could have been any one of us. I think it's a great tragedy for this family that they've lost a family member. You know, it's it's heartbreaking. But you know, yes, there is compensation etcetera, but the real thing is there has to be accountability. We have to ask questions, we have to ask how these things happen. We cannot blame Pandit Nehru for all these things. I know the BJP spokesman, how can you blame Narendra Modi also? You can't blame Pandit Nehru. But can we blame Narendra Modi every time there is a let me, let me come to that. So when, when the government is in place, you have to ask. This institution is part of the central governments regulatory preview. This is not something, this is not a private shop or something. Yes, there can be contracts to the private sector, but ultimately there's a regulatory authority, which is the Government of India. In this particular case, something has happened. We need answers and it's it's not, it's not shameful to ask questions, right? These are very serious things. My colleague from the AAM Aadmi Party raises one very important question. When we talk about infrastructure, you know, we we make big announcements like Prime Minister Modi announced that there would be 100 smart cities by 2000. He said in the first five years there will be 100 sparse cities. I don't know how many sparse cities we have in India, but this does not give you confidence when you have something like this happening in the national capital. Now, are we politicizing these things in the sense that you have a neta GRA here, they're going to do some sort of an inauguration. Hurry up, hurry up, hurry up. And I think we have some examples here. And its fair to say the Jabu Jabalpur airport, just three months back, it was inaugurated by the Prime Minister. That roof has collapsed. This particular canopy is part of the, it's a new canopy, not part of the exact old structure, which by the way did bend but did not collapse. And then and then we know the Ramadhir case, we know the Pragathi Maidan case. So these things are there. So these I need, you know, the government. OK, let me just finish. Let let her respond. Both of you. Give me 10 seconds. Both of you are finished. Yeah, go ahead, finish, finish, finish, 10 seconds. So I'm just saying that yes, these are there and the government has to answer. There is no question about that. Now, for what should India be doing anyway in the long term? Look, climate change is a climate change is a reality. Climate change is a reality. We cannot fight. Our whole infrastructure ideology is very old. We need to work with nature otherwise we are not going to be able. These things are going to get worse so we need to we need new thinking about construction design. That's hopefully a bipartisan issue of working with nature. Its not just about a political party but Sanju Varma. Both the other opposition parties are saying this is haste and speed to put up projects at the earliest. Yes, the government in the last 10 years can claim justifiably that many projects that were held up have been fast forwarded. Atal Sethu is a good example of a project that got fast forwarded. The worry is sometimes is there the rush to finish something and showcase it without it being fully complete. The Pragati Maidan tunnel, many believe which got submerged is an example of that. Is there that concern or not? Rajdeep Sarde Sai, I first want to ask your cameraman or your producer, do not mute me because two minutes back you said put her fader down. Its very insulting when each time ma'am, you cannot, you cannot speak over someone else. I have decided that I will tell them the same thing. I will put their fader down if they speak over you. But go ahead, please go ahead. I will do it. No, no, ma'am, again you're again, you're again, you're again. You're getting into a situation which makes things uncomfortable for the viewer. For I am asked, is it so difficult to answer a question? I asked you a simple question, they made a charge, respond to it, I will answer. I also notice one thing and your audience, Rajneet Sardesai audience, please realize and notice he talks about level playing field. He has two people from the opposition. He did not interject them. He has only one from the BJP and he keeps interjecting. Now let me answer your question with data. With data I will answer. There has been an infrastructure boom under the Narendra Modi government. Gorakpur Link Expressway, Delhi, Mumbai industrial corridor, Chennai Metro, Chennai Mysore rail corridor, Coimbatore Metro, Pune Metro, Nagpur Metro, Vasova Bandra Sealing, Bogi Bill bridge group and Hazarika Sethu. Atal tunnel, Atal Sethu China bridge, Gundekhand Expressway, Baliya Link Expressway, Neera Delhi RTS corridor, Ganga Expressway which has kick started Noida International Airport, so on and so forth. So more, every government in 10 years has done what Congress could not do in six decades that it was in power. Pehla points to yeah, second point, the Congress. I always say a great leader is somebody who does not build flaky castles in the air. He matches his grandiose vision with seamless execution. Congress started the bogey Bill bridge, left it incomplete. Congress started the Bhutan, Hazarika Sethu left it incomplete. Congress started the China bridge, left it incomplete. Congress started the Mumbai Trans Harbor. Telling the state incomplete, Congress started the background. They are claiming that you're completing them but often doing them in a rush. Now my last point is this to the AAM Aadmi Party and this I don't want to be interrupted. 2016, Delhi was grappling with Dengi. Arvind Kejriwal was getting his throat treated for a minor throat infection at the Jindal Nature Care in Bengaluru last year when there were floods between Artisia and Saurabh Bhardwaj. They handle more than a dozen ministries. Saurabh Bhardwaj said Hamse maho pagachi hamari galti nahiye to LG Ki galti hai. Whereas water helps sanitation. PWD come under Arvind Kejriwal not under LG When Punjab was not under AAM Aadmi Party each time there was parali burning in winters Punjab Ki galti hai. Now since one of the AAM Aadmi Party is in power, Abhi Parali burning Uttar Pradesh. Today when Delhi is grappling with water scarce scarcity, KG versus Hamarakashi here Haryana Manoka Ghoshi thaarao and I want to ask you Rajneet this the last point you always tell me, take my tough questions. Today when Delhi is grappling with water scarcity, AAPI she is more busy. Key BT upper Gaya and niche Gaya. Key tone level Upper Gaya and niche. OK, you made all your points. OK, the producer, I'm going to put the fader down because there's a time limit. Salman shows you are listening and your point there putting a hand up, you want to respond. Let's be clear, the Modi government in the last 10 years can claim they've handled a lot of big ticket projects, were singling out a few where maybe the button was pushed too fast without it being fully prepared. Some say with an eye on elections. But either way, that's an infrastructure push, Rajleep, You know, we can list infrastructure projects and that doesn't really do justice to the topic because there are hundreds of thousands of bridges and roads and other things that have been created. These guys don't know it because they're not good students of history, but I don't want to talk about them. The the question, the question is what is the philosophy that is driving this government? You know, you talk about these big ticket items. The question is, what kind of development is this? Is this really supporting the the average person? Let's take railways, for example, you, you know, every time we have the Prime Minister going in Vande Bharat Express, Nikal, the arm never will be inaugurated. Vande Baharat Express and Rajiv, you must have seen yourself. The audience sees every day there are videos upon videos going viral of how there are people crammed into our trains these days cram literally crammed because there's there's no capacity because they keep they keep talking about, you know, they have this propaganda, but how they're doing so world class stuff. But for very few people, much of the country is suffering because these guys have a very old kind of the the way of thinking about infrastructure is very old fashioned. So you're saying that it's not people friendly. That's the point. I'll say Marathi, I'll say Marathi. If it was people friendly, then you would not have these scenes while Sanjay Varma was speaking. You would not have these scenes on television of people grappling with the severe flooding in. In Delhi. These scenes have been seen, to be fair, for the last 40-50 years. But Akshay Marathi respond ma'am, put up no crosstalk. Akshay Marathi respond. Tell me what the AAM Aadmi Party is going to do to change things. You can't constantly pass the buck. No, Radhiki, did you hear me pass the buck even once? I think we are taking responsibility for when it comes to Delhi. In fact, if you remember for the last three years, the usual visual of the Minto Bridge where water used to get logged underneath was not happening. This year, it has come back and it is a problem. We will take care of it. Today, our ministers sat down with every single department across the governments. We even called MCD, we even called, you know, departments that don't actually come under us even though we have no power over them. And we have sat down with them and prepared an emergency, you know, campaign to make sure that this doesn't continue. We have also seen historic rainfall in Delhi today. Remember, this was the worst rainfall in 124 hour period in almost 83 years. So we are facing a natural catastrophe and obviously, the infrastructure that was built is not prepared to handle that. And something needs to be done on a national scale for it. It says that AAM Aadmi Party is doing its work. We we take responsibility. But let me make one quick large point, Rajdeepji. We need a national government that wants to work collaboratively with all governments. Instead, what we have is a government that arrests chief ministers. It completely disables the elected government of Delhi. It takes away the powers of the Delhi government. And then it comes on national television debates and says, what is AAM Aadmi Party doing? Why were they celebrating when the state parliament took away the powers of the Delhi government? Why were they celebrating when the central government took away all the powers of the elected government of Delhi? Now, you cannot come to these television debates and say that oh, every responsibility is with you, but the power is with the BJP. Akshay, you make a strong point. You talk about the need to ensure a federal compact. Just a minute, ma'am, please. Where? Where states are also empowered and government, the center is being collaborative with states rather than antagonistic. I will give you 30 seconds on the clock. Sanju Varma, to a question that troubles me. One of my home states is Goa. Panjim is a smart city. If you ever go to Panjim for the last two years, all you see is the streets are dug up and really the city doesn't seem very smart. Has this smart city concept exploded in your face? Just as you've had successes? Would you concede that the smart city concept, and I'm putting some numbers, has been a disaster? Can I answer? Yeah, 30 seconds. Now Akshaya Marathi made made a long speech. Repeat. No. No. First you answer my smart city question. Then you can respond to it. Do not be intolerant. No, I want. I want an answer to smart city. I will answer. Do not second guess me. Do not put a gun to my head. OK. You are an anchor. I am a ponist. Please relax. Relax. Relax. Please first I will answer the allegations by AAM Aadmi Party. You sit here and say that the Modi government has disabled Kejriwal. The Modi government has sent Kejriwal to jail. Aksham Arati, the Delhi High Court and the Supreme Court have refused to give Kejriwal bail in the liquor scam. OK, you make the point, you made the point. You made the point. You made that point in the past. The fact is I asked you about Smart City project. Please respond. I will respond. You did not interject anyone. I will respond. Do not interject. Thank you. Now talking of smart cities, I knew Radhi Sardesai will ask this question. Sanju Verma yeh nahi kiya go nahi kiya. So let me tell you this, I went through the report of the United Nations Central Center for Regional Development, UNCRB, and I was surprised to know the UNCRB says that amongst the top ten cities in the world, Indore is the cleanest. Amongst the top ten cities in the world, Bhopal and Ahmedabad are the greenest. Among the top ten cities in the world, Pune is the most high tech emerging smart city. Amongst the top 10 smart cities in the world, Jaipur is the smartest heritage city, the top 10 smart cities in the world, Nagpur is the fastest growing smart city. And so you're OK? What did the report say? One very interesting point. They said that this should be a textbook case. It was a waste yard. It was a dump yard. It was a garbage dump yard. What am I talking of? I'm talking of Sabarmati. And today, thanks to Narendra Modi, the Sabarmati waterfront is an epitome of good governance. Iski Bhatkarapali OK, OK. You're saying you're you're you're saying the glass is half full. Your critics say its half empty. We've heard Sanju Verma, we've heard Salman shows, we've heard Akshay Marathi. What we want is accountability. When things go wrong, governments prat themselves on the back and rightly so. When things go right, they must also have the courage to accept when things go wrong. Let's end the political debate there. But we've got a little bit more. OK, so we've heard from the netas many of whom seem to wake up only when the water reaches their doorstep. But its not just Delhi. In recent times, we've seen waterlogging flooding unprecedented across our cities. Delhi, Mumbai, Bengaluru, Chennai, each of our major cities in recent times has given us a sinking feeling. From storms to heavy rains, city infrastructure being found wanting on many an occasion. Add to this the threat of more and more extreme weather events that we are witnessing at the moment. The question arises, how do we make our cities weatherproof? Let's carry forward our roundtable now and talk to experts. Jaya Dindo is executive program director, sustainable cities and director, WRI India Ross Center. Kedarnath Rao Gurpade is former chief planner, the Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority. Vivek Menon is urban planner. Dikshu Kukreja is an urban and environmental planner. I want first each of you to respond to what you've seen happen in Delhi today. Is it typical of of what's happening across our cities or is it exceptional because of the complete collapse of drainage systems? Jayadindo, why don't you start first? So thanks, Jagjit. So I think we are in a situation now where the law of probabilities does not apply, right. So what we are seeing in Delhi today, we saw in Bangalore about a few weeks, few months ago. We've seen it in Mumbai year after year. So no city is spared. And to be honest, you know, India is a country, it's the 7th most vulnerable to climate change and its compounding impact, 80% of our urban population lives in districts which are climate target shown. So this is going to keep happening, its going to keep getting worse and more frequent unfortunately. OK, let me bring in Kedarnath Rao Gurpade because you're from my city of Mumbai. Mumbai we've seen in every year during the monsoon, at least a couple of days when the city still struggles to deal with rain. The Mumbai Municipal Corporation claims they've got their drainage better today than it was 5 or 10 years ago. Do you go along with that or do you believe cities like Mumbai, wherein we've seen many of the traditional sources being covered with construction and therefore drainage, also struggling to reach the usual sources of water flow? How do you see Mumbais position? OK Namaskar, I think reference to Mumbai. I think nearly four plus decades I have been here and from day one, wherever I have stayed, I have trudged through the streets during the monsoons and I make it a point that if possible do trudge to, you know you went in 2005. I think from Bandra to Washi, I have walked through and enjoyed and learned a lot of it. And I was also interviewed by The Times of India. One thing is I think what really one has to accept in case of Mumbai specific, it's kind of a saucer and we are reclaiming the land. And we need to be very clear that if flooding happens in one area, it is likely that you reclaim some part, it'll go on to the other one. Let's take the case of say Daiser in North Mumbai, Western Mumbai, they have been showing this, you know, I would say moving flooding zones and that's what I have observed in the last couple of years in Mumbai specifically. I think the new trend which is emerging in the urban planning sector is we need to have nature based kind of a solution or a science based solution wherein we consider the natural features to a great extent and also look at that how do we take water as one of the primary concerns in the planning of cities and there is a new trend again emerging as water sensitive cities. I myself was involved in one of the assignments and where we came out that instead of hard surfaces we should have soft surfaces. That is a new trend. Soft surface incense made in I'm going to just stop you is able to absorb. I'm just going to stop you for a moment. I'll come back to Mumbai because the visuals we are showing you are of Delhi and Delhi is what has really prompted us to look at our sinking cities. Dikshu Kukreja, you come from a look at those parts of Delhi, Latians, Delhi, heart of Delhi, every corner today was flooded out. Has it got worse, you believe over time because of drainage, because of rampant construction, because of tree felling, all kinds of reasons are being offered as to why Delhi is even more vulnerable to this kind of heavy rainfall. What do you think explains what happened in Delhi today? Well, add the most basic of reasons, Rajdeep to your list. I would say it is completely human arrogance, particularly of our local authorities, municipalities and those who govern these cities that, you know, we are talking about or we've been talking for a long time now about world class cities. And are these disturbing, disappointing, disappointing images on your screen anything of a world class city? So I think the first and foremost is what is our attitude towards the city? We we can keep finding lots of excuses for it. We can also attribute today now to the buzzword of climate change, but this has been a horrific image year after year. I mean, in fact, it makes me even turn nostalgic for a moment where I look at the Minto Bridge image on your screen, which I've been watching for the last 40 years the same way. Why don't we just now convert it into a Minto Lake rather than a Minto Bridge? We need to understand here that you know the fundamentals of a city which is growing in a developing nation. You're obviously going to have urban migration. You're obviously going to keep continuing to have more development. But that doesn't mean that today with technology, with artificial intelligence and what have you, we cannot plan these things. Then there is the fundamental aspect, which is one of the fundamental reasons of these images is also the desilting of drains. We talk about year after year when those drains have been designed to a certain capacity. Maybe today the flood rains, you know, do not. The flash rains, I'm sorry, do not cater to those drains. But as it is, the drains are now half filled with just silt and garbage. So their capacity is anyway less than what it should be. So there are so many such fundamental aspects which really don't require rocket science, which really do not require major investments so we can keep building world class infrastructure. I'm seeing images of the airport as well on your screen. We can keep building this world class infrastructure, but are we really equipped from an attitude point of view to maintain this infrastructure? You know, these fundamental flaws need to be fixed in my opinion. We'll come to specific solutions from each of you. But Vivek Menon, there are those whose the government of the day, particularly in the last 10 years, has spoken a lot about smart cities. Sanction product projects in smart cities #8000 number is 8013 cost 1,64,000 crores being spent on smart cities. When I look at what is happening around me, I wonder whether even if the national capital is is sinking, what happens to these other smart cities? Completed projects number is 7167 cost 1,43,000 crores on ongoing projects #8 for 40, 26 cost again 20,200 crores. This is as per urban ministry is. Do you see any of these cities being smart cities at all when they cannot ensure basic drainage facilities? Absolutely. I think Rajiv, there's a law. I mean, Rajdeep, there's a lot of money that's actually going down the drain. And in the literal sense, you know, we here in Bangalore, you know, have seen are not new to any rains and flooding. We've had this over the past, you know, five years. And in the past two years we've had some significant flooding. I think there are solutions for this. I think the lack of engineering, lack of proper engineering is where the problem lies. You know, most of our cities have exploded over the past 15 to 20 years. These two decades have seen significant growth and with that growth, obviously there are a lot of areas that are being paved off. There are a lot of apartments that are coming in places with villas. And so there's a lot of sheet flow that comes off from all of these areas. Unfortunately, what we've done is we've gone ahead and closed up most of our lakes. We have converted lake beds into layouts. That's a significant problem that we find here in Bangalore. And so there's nowhere for this water to go. Now, I can understand cities like Mumbai which probably are at sea level and there are various other challenges. But when it it comes to Bangalore, there should be no reason why there should be flooding. Now, the unfortunate part about smart cities is that smart has been kind of defined as, you know, connectivity, Internet connectivity, you know, it's everything to do with IT, it's everything to do with AI. But the ground reality is that the ground infrastructure has not kept up with it. We have not updated any of our cities. And you know, thanks to our forefathers like, you know, M Vishweshwarya, Lutyens and others, they planned our cities exceptionally well. So we did inherit cities that were well planned, but in the past two to 2 1/2 decades when our cities have actually exploded, we have failed to invest in infrastructure. And I think while we have spent a lot of money, budgets have been made, there's been so much of leakage in the system that ground infrastructure just doesn't match up to it. Here in Bangalore, we created something called tender sure specifications for urban Rd. engineering and we introduced a complete chapter in there about flood mitigation and water securitization. Now, flood mitigation is something that can be very easily solved if we were to actually do the analysis and create detention facilities. You know, even in Mumbai, if you had detention facilities, it could be lakes, it could be, you know, large underground facilities that are able to take the water during the maximum flood. That's, you know, when during the peak rainfall, you need to be able to trap that water, hold it and then release it back into the streams and, and, and other infrastructure. So I think there's a complete lack of planning. The comprehensive development plan that we actually created in Bangalore is probably just sitting on the shelves. We don't have any GIS mapping of all of our drainage systems and all of our utilities. So this problem is only going to com compound itself unless we come up with some kind of a national rejuvenation mission. This is to rebuild India and rebuild India urban infrastructure. So I think that's something that we really need to focus on. There are solutions, there are umpty number of solutions, but I will come to those solutions 1 by 1 to each of you. But Jaya Dindo, when I look at Delhi in particular, it is when I look at the figures, it is Indias fastest growing city, the entire NCR, Gurugram, Noida, Delhi. And it appears that a city can only take so much. It appears to me and again as someone who's observed Delhi that the city has simply exploded out of control and there is no governance model in place. Do you believe a city like Delhi with NCR exploding on its sides needs a special governance model that will focus on these local issues that many of you have highlighted already? Absolutely. Rajasthi I think more than the governance model right In the in the case of Delhi, you know its four things coming together, its based in which we've built the materiality where we've built. The legacy sort of infrastructure which is close to like 75, you know, 18 years old and needs upgradation and replacement and then just general mismanagement of resources, right? So to fix all of that, you definitely need a governance structure which can keep pace with all of this. Also to give you a figure, you know, over the last couple of decades, 66% of the new growth in Delhi has happened in areas with really high recharge potential. So what that means is you shut down blue-green infrastructure, which had the natural porosity to kind of absorb some of this water, and you build on top of it. So you concretize the city. And this is sort of inevitable, right? The other thing is the finances and the kind of money that our urban local bodies have. The urban local body revenues in India are less than 1% of the total GDP, right? Compare that with 6% and seven percent, 5% in other developing countries, including Africa, right? And that's the state cities are contributing 70% of the GDP, right? So that's how cash and resource trap cities are. So given these constraints, it's very hard to think about how can you plan better? How can you manage better? How can you conserve and resource our cities better? You know, because Mr. Gorpadeh taking off from that Mumbai Municipal Corporation is one of the richest civic bodies in the country. But it's been accused in the past of misusing that money. That money is used not for transforming the drainage system of the country, but its lines up the pockets of of counselors or they put it in projects where they get a cut. Is that something that worries you that the corruption at urban governance is so high that even urban bodies which are cash rich like the Mumbai Bombay Municipal Corporation have been unable to tackle the the crisis of drainage without getting drainage in place In a city like Mumbai, you're asking for trouble every year. I think in case of Mumbai, one has to look at it that there are multiple agencies which are involved in providing the basic infrastructure itself, let's say roads on metros or railways or even the airports and the way it is being built up or including the real estate which is fully driven by the private sector. I think one has to look at it in a holistic way rather than, you know, you know, isolated way with saying that whether a corporation or a urban local body is right or wrong, I would put it that way or being corrupt or non corrupt. I am looking at from overall city management perspective that one has to look at the aging infrastructure and the expanding areas and the design perspectives. Whether the stormwater drains which are being now created. Whether you need a, you know, bioswales kind of a thing where in water absorption capacities are much better or you are looking for a box drain. Kind of a culture where in water absorption either on the ground or on the sites is very low. I think it is an overall kind of perspective which needs to be taken rather than saying that this is right and this is wrong and this is what is happening. I mean I havent come come across something to say I would look at as an urban planner more onto the design perspective. But you see the fact, the fact Mr. Gorpat is every year the BMC carries out the desilting of minor and major nallas along the sort of me Mithi River, the civic body allots crores of money. Does it go to where it should go? I'm asking a direct question. Does money which is meant for the purpose which is which it is allocated for desilting of nalas, ensuring that there is no major water logging, does it go into the right causes or not in your view? Yeah. I am looking at from this angle that whether the capital investment versus the maintenance, maintenance management, that is what we are looking at. On one hand, desilting is more of a maintenance issue which is going to quick continuous and whereas the filling and the continuous siltation which goes on across Mumbai if one looks at it. And finally, material is one of the five rivers wherein you are able to kind of desil, I mean let the water flow out. I think that is what is required and the amount of muck which goes in when we have created, you know, kind of but but does the money go where it is meant for can can me as a taxpayer citizen be assured that the money is which is allotted for the silting goes there or does it line up the pockets of counselors and and bureaucrats? I think in that case, one would look at whether there is a public audit which needs to be carried out and we go ahead and find out. But that hasn't you see that's the problem. There are various recommendations after the 2005 deluge. Many of those recommendations have not been pushed ahead. Let's let's for a moment come back again to Delhi, Dikshu Kukreja, because in Delhi there's a blame game again, like Mumbai, there are multiple authorities. There are certain parts of the city which are under the the the city government, certain parts which are under the center. You've got the NCR with different governance models. Does that lead to multiplicity of authorities? Could we do, could one solution be a single authority which is empowered prop possibly independent of daily government interference, which could actually handle this issue of urban planning? Sure, most certainly, most certainly, Rajdeep, I would agree that one of the serious concerns always which has been pointed out time and again is the multiplicity of authorities. And in Delhi Visa V Mumbai, even far multifold, I would say there are far more authorities and agencies in Delhi. But having said that, I would also give a good example which is in Delhi, which is you know, Delhi used to have a similar problem with its urban mobility and transportation and they formed a singular body called the UTPAC, Unified Transport and Traffic Infrastructure Authority. Similarly, I would recommend that they can be a single agency as far as water management and integrated water management authority for Delhi which can take care of all these aspects and is the overarching body which handles these affairs. Water is a critical issue for cities. Now who would who would this integrated water management authority be accountable to? Well, it would be accountable to, of course, finally the citizens, but most importantly, I would say to the state government. But before that, I would say this authority should not be just for the for Delhi. It should be really for NCR because the problem is more holistic than just the boundary of Delhi. Like you said, it's also about Noida, Gurgaon, Ghaziabad and you know other parts of Haryana which fall in Yamuna river is a big issue here. And you know, how much money has been sunk into the cleaning of the Yamuna River? Similarly, the drains and the aquifier system of Delhi that has been completely messed up with, like Vivek was mentioning the same situation in Delhi with the lakes, which used to be natural water reservoirs for these kind of situations, like the monsoons, they have been filled over, they have been buildings made over them. And concretization and rapid urbanization is of course, another issue. Now, I'm not saying we should not urbanize, but there are sustainable ways of urbanizing. Why do we have to concretize? Have you seen how many trees have fallen just in the last 24 hours? We know how to, you know, it's a simple formula that you need to leave so much area where you don't put concrete so that the roots of the trees are not impacted. So where do we need rocket science for all of this? And I think all these aspects should come under the ambit, at least when it comes to water management and water management related issues under one single body. You know, the concretization issue which was just raised, Vivek, its been a serious issue in your city of Bengaluru in particular. As Bengaluru has exploded, the lakes have shrunk people, the water bodies are getting fewer and fewer. We've seen that even in Chennai, the traditional water bodies are getting concretized. Construction goes on. Is that the real threat? Because real estate today takes over our cities, Everybody wants a place to stay. And as urban areas expand, you find that the traditional sources of what of water flow are being are being plugged in by concretization. Is that, is there a solution out there somewhere? Absolutely, Rajdeep. I mean, the problem here is that, you know, unfortunately our urban infrastructure has today got so much of stress on it, right, Because we have not built roads, we have not expanded our cities, we have not gone out into the outskirts and actually built good cities. So the so the inner core of the city tends to find these kind of problems every, every every year. Now, in terms of a structure, you know, I worked in the US for three decades. The FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency actually has flood maps, which means there's an agency that's actually tasked with flooding, flooding. Now, when you come down to urban local bodies that are flood control districts, and these districts actually, believe it or not, enforce these norms, they ensure that, you know, areas are not completely concretized. And if you do concretize an area, you have to provide some kind of a flood mitigation strategy, which is creating a detention facility. So in the absence of, you know, good planning, we are running into such problems. Its not that we cannot urbanize our cities, its not. But is it possible now or is it too late? Vivek, is it possible now or or has the genie in a wake up out of the bottle that its impossible now to plan given the way a city like Bengaluru or indeed any of our cities are already completely out of control? Not really Rajdeep see I mean today, even if you take the case of Bengaluru, because this is where I've worked for the past almost year, decade and a half. Right now we used to have 480 lakes. We still have 80 lakes. Now unfortunately, these 80 lakes have not been desilted, which means their capacities have reduced. We have beautiful nalas as we call them a Rajakalu is which connect these lakes. So the system actually already exists in place. Now the question is, are we willing to enhance these systems? Are we willing to actually clean up these systems and do this on a regular maintenance basis so that every every year when the flooding comes through or when the when the extreme rainfall events And we have seen that now you know, most of these systems were designed for 100 year frequency, but now we are seeing 300 and 400 year frequency rainfall, which means the intensity is much higher. But if we do plan for it in advance and we are able to create these detention facilities and we are able to actually default, we can actually solve this problem. So it's not that we are past it, it's just that we are not playing up to we are not we are not even trying to play catch up with it. You know both in the both of you, you know both you as well as Dikshu offered this possibility of some integrated water management agency. I wonder whether, Jaya, that is a solution that we need someone who we can hold accountable at times like this, rather than the usual blame game, is an integrated water management agency that then focuses possibly at least in the first stage, on the six major metros of this country a way forward? So basically, Rajpesh, we need a systems approach, right? So when it comes to natural resources, they don't follow administrative and political boundaries, water, air, they don't follow administrative boundaries. So the solutions we need an integrated urban water management systems approach. Yes. Do we need one body? Well, we need cooperation at the regional level because a lot of these problems are going to be regional in nature and in scale. We need bodies at the local level which are empowered. So it needs to be a sweet here sort of level of governance. And it can't be just one body that management. Where would the system, where would the system start? When you say you need, when you say integrated water management system, where do you start? Do you start with drainage? Where do you, where do you start? Yes. So basically when you look at, I'll tell you the example of the city of Bangalore, when you look at the number of authorities who are involved in water management, there are 25 plus authorities, right? They all have different or overlapping mandates. And then there's the issue of basically enforcement and monitoring. So over there, the idea is that can you have a body which is at the regional level, which is at the watershed level, for example, a body which is at the local level, your city authority? And can these, can that vertical sort of coordination between these bodies be made so that, you know, these issues and all of the solutions can come through that Channel? So that is what is needed really is a regional plus a local response. It can't be just one or the other. Dikshu. In conclusion, what's the one big solution that you have out there which can be done immediately? Come tomorrow, these images will be all over. These images have been all over for the last 24 hours. Delhi will wake up and if the weather improves, well, pretend that this was one bad day. And thereby you, you tend to forget very quickly the errors of the past. So how do you ensure that people recognize the systemic failures? What's that one thing that needs to be done come tomorrow morning? You know, very simple. I would give simple solutions. Each one of us needs to understand that if you want to live in a city, you need to understand that you need to conserve nature as well. I call it organic architecture, and I believe that's the simplest way to go about it. Build, but build besides nature. Don't build at the cost of nature because nature will come back to you with the kind of images you're showing. Is it too late though? Is it not late? Not at all. It's never too late. It's so simple to solve it. We are still a developing nation. Remember, we are talking about a Vixit Bharat. But let's do it the sensible way. I don't think it's too late at all. But yes, every year if we keep talking the same thing and do nothing about it, that's unfortunate. I think there are still ways to do it. We still have a population which is growing. We have a population which can still be balanced between urban and rural. So all these are bigger solutions. Of course, I don't want to get into that discussion right now, but no, it's not too late. We just need to have an attitude till shift. Somebody mentioned at our sleep about good urban planning. What do we define as good urban planning? First of all, let's start looking at how professionals are selected for these kind of projects. How can a city country which is talking about world class infrastructure, build it by giving L1, selecting consultants on the lowest fee basis? Where does the technical expertise go? Out of the window? So these basic aspects need to be looked at. I think the solutions will follow automatically. Let's leave it there. It's wonderful to have those who worked in the field to to explain what they believe are solutions for the future. I'm going to leave you. Thank you. And then leave our viewers with all those images from across the national capital. Remember, we talk, as was just suggested, about a Vixit Bharat. We talk about 2047, how we're going to transform this nation. We've got to start it with our cities because more and more Indians are migrating to the cities. There will be greater and greater pressure on infrastructure. The images that we've seen today should shock us and force us to change. Think about it. Stay well, stay safe, Jai Hind Namaskar.