BrahMos provides credible deterrence, recognition of India's defence industry: Philippine Ambassador Ignacio

08/05/2024

The Philippines’ recent induction of BrahMos missiles has been hailed as a significant development by Ambassador Josel Francisco Ignacio. In an exclusive interview with diplomatic correspondent Sidhant Sibal, Philippines Ambassador Ignacio described the acquisition as a “milestone” for the country’s defence modernisation, providing “credible deterrence”. The BrahMos missile, renowned for its speed and precision, was jointly developed by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Russia’s NPO Mashinostroyenia. The $375 million deal, signed in 2022, marked a crucial step forward for the Philippines undertaking its defence modernisation.

The ambassador further acknowledged the deepening ties between India and the Philippines, noting an “intensification that they have not seen before and that is very welcome.” He expressed hope for increased Indian tourist arrivals in his country and advocated for establishing a direct flight connection. Regarding the ongoing tensions in the West Philippine Sea/South China Sea, Ambassador Ignacio reaffirmed the Philippines’ commitment to its legal rights and entitlements in the region, stating, “Philippines stands on firm legal ground as to what its entitlements are as to what its rights within the West Philippine Sea.” China has used water cannons against Philippine vessels in the region, raising tensions.

Here’s the full interview:

WION: How do you see the India-Philippines relationship, the key elements and how it has been growing in the past few years?

Josel Francisco Ignacio: This year is the 75th year of Philippines and India diplomatic relations, but our relations go far back, they are centuries old. We have a lot of common elements, cultural relations, historical relations, and people-to-people relations, Indian communities have had a presence in the Philippines for centuries, but in more modern times, now we have seen these common elements evolve into a lot of other things. Now, we have a shared purpose. We are both the leading and staunch democracies of Asia, India, the largest democracy in Asia and the Philippines, one of the older bastions of democracy, and diversity. We are the first Asian Republic, in fact. Now we are both advocates of the rule of law, peace and security and prosperity for all. These things converge together to form you know, the good underpinning of you know, the kind of relationship we have. We find that although the relationship is now 75 years old, over the past decade, we have seen an intensification that they have not seen before and that is very welcome. Coming here to India, I am happy to sort of frame it as the relationship has gone on turbo, so suddenly, it’s not a gradual increase. It’s like a sudden spike. That is very much welcome and that’s where we stand right now. You know, we’re trying to bring the relationship, get it moving across all levels, and much needs to be done but we’re happy where it is right now. We’re looking to be even busier, working on advancing and making progress and you know, trade, politics, security, defence, people-to-people culture, you know, we’ll get all these engines firing.

WION: We saw the visit of the Indian External Affairs Minister Dr S Jaishankar. On that visit, India also came out in support of Philippine sovereignty as well at a time when we have seen increased Chinese aggressiveness with your country. How do you see the visit and how do you see these comments by the Indian side, on your sovereignty at a very crucial time?

Josel Francisco Ignacio: Well, first of all, speaking purely within the frame of India-Philippines relations, very much welcome. We are very elated that Dr Jaishankar, EAM visited the Philippines for the second time in as many years. And this actually shows the intensification that I was talking about, high-level visits coming, more regularly. When I was in Manila, almost five years ago, I was part of the team that worked on the visit of then president Kovind and, this visit by EAM sustains that high-level engagement. Last year, our secretary was here, and in between they had meetings, including in Kampala. We’ve had phone calls between the leaders. So many high-level engagements, again, reflecting the intensification of our relations. As far as you know, your other question is about EAM’s remarks about supporting Philippine sovereignty. I think it couldn’t have come at a better time. First, because it comes, you know, we look at it within the context of India’s clear support for the arbitral award in the arbitration case in the South China Sea. India’s clear position of support from June 2023. So that’s one context in which we look at it. But the other thing is, you know, it’s an important recognition by the EAM Jaishankar of the Philippine agency with regard to its actions, especially in the South China Sea. You would hear some narratives, for instance, that what’s happening in the waters in the South China Sea, for instance, is a case of you know, rivalry among powers in which the other littoral states are put forward as if they are just, you know, pawns, you know, in a larger chessboard, which cannot be farther than the truth. You know, the EAM’s acknowledgement of the Philippine sovereignty dovetails very clearly with what we have been emphasising as the Philippines that is, we’ve determined our own, you know, interests we have our own sovereignty to protect. We take our actions, there who take our positions there, because our own territory, our own sovereign jurisdiction, sovereignty, sovereign rights in EEZ, are under risk, and we as an independent state, as a sovereign country, you know, has their own policy, we have our own strategic calculus, and we act based on that. And that statement by the EAM, although it’s a very short statement, has all these manifold implications that you know, we really appreciate.

WION: So I’ll come to the bit of the situation when it comes to the South China Sea slash West Philippine Sea, but let me continue with the India bit now. Security and Defence have been the key pillars which have again seen a turbo, a sudden spike as you pointed out. Now, India has sent BrahMos missiles and this is something that you have got from India, how do you see this acquisition by the Philippines from India going forward?

Josel Francisco Ignacio: I think two things now. Our defence relationship with India has always been there. In 2006, we signed a memorandum of agreement on defence cooperation that provides the framework that underpins you know, broader cooperation along many lines of defence, for instance, training and education and exchanges, port calls by naval vessels. But of late again as a reflection of the intensification of the overall relations. Our defence cooperation has also intensified, which is again very welcome. The BrahMos is significant in the sense that it provides the Philippines credible deterrence, as you know, for us, you know, for the past decades, we have been modernising our armed forces and have been trying to build, you know, credible deterrence and BrahMos gives, it’s an important start to that ongoing journey. It’s an important element of this ongoing journey. So, the Brahmos acquisition is a milestone for the Philippines in terms of, you know, Armed Forces modernisation and defence, credible defence, but I would also hand it to India. It’s also a recognition of India’s Defence Industry, defence capability, and its increasing, you know, defence footprint, as well as its overall goal of trying to be a responsible player in the international community.

WION: Any plans to get more defensive weapons including BrahMos from India? I saw a recent report that the Philippines plan to get helicopters from India for humanitarian purposes.

Josel Francisco Ignacio: Well, our defence modernisation proceeds in phases. We are now entering phase three. And of course, there’s a menu of items that our armed forces would like to be able to secure in order to build this overall modernisation and defence position that we would like to obtain. The shopping list would be up to our Department of Defence, but certainly, I think what’s important to say at this point is that India being what it is, you know, having the ability, industrial ability, the technology and I think you know, the proven quality of the products, the defence products that it builds, is certainly one of the important markets, if I may put it that way. One of the important sources that we are looking at and we are very confident that you know, this kind of cooperation in defence equipment will only, you know, go deeper and farther and expand even more in the coming years.

WION: In terms of defence, maritime security is also something that there has been cooperation. We recently saw the visit of an Indian coast guard ship which coincided with EAM’s visit as well. Now, India is sending warships to the South China Sea, not particularly to the Philippines. So how do you see the maritime cooperation happening between these two countries?

Josel Francisco Ignacio: India and the Philippines are both maritime nations. The maritime sphere is very important to us, for the Philippines, especially so you know, being an archipelagic country, you know, at the western border of the Pacific and then you know, the littoral states, the South China Sea, along very important sea lanes of communication. So, maritime cooperation with every partner and especially with India, you see something that we value and we look at it as something that we need to cultivate. The EAM’s visit coinciding with the visit of the Indian Coast Guard vessel, I think exemplifies in very concrete ways, how our maritime interests in, for instance, the peaceful, stable Indo-Pacific, coincide and, that’s a very good I think, symbolic manifestation of it. But we would like to increase our engagement, Coast Guard to Coast Guard, and even Navy to Navy, to deliver and enhance our cooperation. There’s the security side, but there are also other equally important aspects of maritime cooperation of the blue economy being an important priority now for many countries, for instance, the visit of the Coast Guard vessel of India, it’s about maritime pollution control so that’s an important aspect. There’s, you know, fisheries conservation, IUU, so many so many angles, in so many areas, you know, within the maritime sphere where we can cooperate.

WION: Space is also another area where both countries can cooperate. Any plans to cooperate on that aspect?

Josel Francisco Ignacio: Well, personally, I’ve been very interested in space matters. I always looked up to India even as a younger student when it comes to space, astronomical aspects, astronomical figures and numbers have Indian names attached to them. Last year, I think when we had the Joint Commission on bilateral cooperation, part of the joint statement actually pertains to space cooperation, and both countries have begun to look into that. ISRO and our own Philippine space agency are looking into areas where we can deepen cooperation. Now, India has the technology. India has always been there, whether with launch capabilities, or satellite capability, already proven. The Philippines is in the nascent stages, but the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space, you know, of which there are many other sub-areas, we see we should be able to cooperate with, first in capacity building, of course, in this area, it would be the Philippines looking to India, you have greater experience. There’s remote sensing for instance, via satellite, which has applications not only in security, it has applications when it comes to the environment, climate change, fisheries, land use, pollution control even have their disaster risk response. So space is, you know, an area that should not be set aside and I’m glad that as the Philippines and India, we have now very, clearly put it on our agenda.

WION: On a wider domain, which is the people-to-people relationship, why should Indians go to the Philippines for tourism purposes and for education purposes, if you can elaborate for us?

Josel Francisco Ignacio: Geographically, ASEAN and India are neighbours, but when you look at it, in that geography, we are the Philippines and India are on you know, the farther, you know, farthest limits, that kind of geography and I think it’s about time that the Philippines and India discovered each other. In terms of actual visits, the Philippines has a lot to offer to India, although you know, the Philippines and India, although we are on the same latitude, I think geography has blessed our countries in different ways. I mean, India has its own cultural and natural wonders, which I’m eager to discover, you know, whether it be you know, inland or by the sea by the shore, the Philippines as an archipelago. Of course, it’s a different kind of complexion, especially since the beach experience would be different. I think it’s about time Indians see for themselves what the Philippines has to offer. We have 7000 Plus islands, you know, all of those have their own beaches. The Philippines has a rich history. So we have a lot of heritage destinations as well. That I’m sure Indians will appreciate. We have urban destinations. We have good shopping, we have good nightlife. Any visit to the Philippines would not be complete without exposing yourself to the food, and music. So much to discover, but I always say that this is reciprocal. We would also want our countrymen, Filipinos to come and visit India. So because there are many things also to discover and to appreciate in India. So I think there is a way of mutual self-discovery for both countries that will ultimately drive closer people-to-people relations, but ultimately, overall relations. So in that sense, the reason is important an ambassador, to emphasise restoring direct flights, is because that factors into the decision of travellers. So direct flights would be important, and they’d like to, maybe promote each other even more in terms of conventions, meetings, weddings, and filming.

WION: We have seen almost daily headlines as to what is happening in the South China Sea or West Philippine Sea. We have seen the usage of water cannons by the Chinese forces against Filipino boats, which is something that has really shocked the world. So if we can talk about the assessment, what is the situation? How dangerous is the situation for not only the Indo-Pacific but for the world?

Josel Francisco Ignacio: Yes, I think before we talk about the specific incidents, we need to clarify in the first instance, what the area where this is happening in the West Philippine Sea. The area of dispute has been clarified. It’s clear under the laws, it’s been clarified even further and definitively by the arbitral award of 2016. So, it’s important to clarify at this early stage that you know, it’s not an equal dispute. If I may say so, because the Philippines stands on firm legal ground as to what its entitlements are as to what its rights within the West Philippine Sea, so it’s important to lay down that context you know, before we talk about, you know, what’s happening there. The Philippines is exercising its jurisdiction, and its rights over those waters, whether it be territorial sea or whether it be farther out within the Philippine EEZ area and continental shelf. So those are areas where the Philippines very clearly has legal authority even under international law, to exercise those rights, those actions, but the other party makes it appear that we don’t, by asserting its claim which is legally baseless. In any case, this does not stop us from conducting our own humanitarian missions and supply missions. And that’s where the tensions arise because as I said, the other party tries to stop us supposedly, on enforcement grounds from undertaking these activities and that is where the encounters are happening and, you know, what we’re doing as the Philippines is, you know, as we continue to assert our legal rights, I mean, diplomatically, we use all tools available, peaceful tools, diplomatic tools to get this across to the other side. You know, the arbitral award is final and binding on both parties, and all both parties should be able to comply with those rulings. What we’re happy with is that there’s a growing number of countries that support us, you know, in this regard, and that has even affirmed the arbitral award. More recently, we have the G7 issuing a joint communique, also citing the arbitral award, of course, I will take this opportunity to again, thank the Government of India for affirming that arbitral award. So that’s the underlying context within which those encounters are happening at sea. And, unfortunately, they are continuing but we will not be deterred by you know, legally baseless, aggressive actions or after intimidation. And we will just, you know, soldier on and you know, do as is our right to, you know, to exercise.

WION: But do you see it continuing because it’s just not stopping? The aggressive actions continue from the other side, that is China. Do you see the aggressive actions continuing and what do you plan to counter because it is happening almost on a weekly basis?

Josel Francisco Ignacio: Well, you know, our, our menu of actions, you know, we try to exercise all of these, of course, above all, you know, we are a peace-loving nation. So, above all, it’s, you know, we are aiming for a peaceful settlement, you know, these differences. So, there’s a peaceful dispute settlement, but it has to be underpinned, you know, by law because that equalises before international law, everyone’s equal, no one is bigger, no one is smaller. You know, we are equal, and I think the law is very clear, especially UNCLOS and then especially again the arbitral award, which has very much clarified certain aspects of UNCLOS. So, we also use the law to reaffirm our position. But things are ongoing. So, you know, we got another level, there is also a battle being waged in the theatre of public opinion, you know, the other side says, you know, you provoke etcetera, etcetera. So, what we’re doing is to show the world what’s actually happening on the waters. So we have this transparency campaign, ongoing, and that’s what you see. What you see on your screens on your television is actually, you know, part of the product of this transparency campaign whereby the media accompany, international or domestic accompany us and see for themselves who’s telling the truth.

WION: Have you briefed the Indian side about the incidents?

Josel Francisco Ignacio: Well, we are always in touch, you know, with our Indian colleagues, whether it be in Manila or here, and I think both sides have a clear appreciation of what’s happening. I think the visit of the EAM and the statements that he has made, the statements that the Ministry of External Affairs has been making on the South China Sea, reflects very much, the kind of regular dialogue that we have bilaterally whether informal or through formal mechanisms to keep each other abreast of what’s happening there.

WION: The new group on the block, that’s a squad. How do you see this group? Do you think this group can and will be able to counter the Chinese aggressiveness?

Josel Francisco Ignacio: As the Philippines, we have our own foreign policy decisions based on our interests. We have our own agency to decide what is best for ourselves. And part of that is the partnerships that we have. We have as everyone knows, we have an alliance, a formal alliance with a Security Treaty with the US. We have a strategic partner in Australia, similar in Japan, and you know, these converge naturally, especially because these four countries are in the Indo-Pacific Area. Of course, we talk about the larger Indo-Pacific but, you know, in the sense that we are Pacific countries, we also want to focus on the imperatives in that area, and it’s natural for these four countries to be working on areas of mutual concern. So I think therein lies the imperative and the driver behind Squad. Now, the other part of the question, we strongly believe that these are not competing, Squad and Quad. They are both relevant to our shared goal of having a peaceful, stable, prosperous Indo-Pacific. And I think in the end we will see the complementarities of these what are coming to be called as you know, sort of triangles or mini-laterals or you know, smaller groupings, all are complimentary, as well for as long as the boundaries are like-minded have a shared recognition of the challenges and most of all operate within the same recognition of what is legal and what is rules-based.