Criticism of ICC arrest bid for Netanyahu 'huge mistake', ex-ICC prosecutor says

Hello and welcome to Teta Tet, France 24's flagship interview show. Our guest today is Luis Moreno Ocampo. He is the first Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, and he joins us from Washington. Thank you very much for being with us. No, my pleasure. A few days ago, the current chief prosecutor of the ICC, Kareem Khan, announced that he was seeking arrest warrants against three top Hamas leaders as well as Isol's Prime Minister and defence minister on crimes against humanity and war crimes committed during and after the October 7th attacks. So the charges against Hamas leaders, Yahya Sin Noir, Ismail Haniye Muhammad Daif include extermination, murder, rape, sexual assault, while the charges against Benjamin Netanyahu and you have Galant include causing extermination, causing starvation as a method of war and deliberately targeting civilians. So Mr. Ocampo, Israel is outraged at what he sees as the moral equivalence between a terrorist groups and the state reaction in response to the October Seven massacre. How do you respond to those Israeli feelings? Well, I'm not sure is that all Israelis feel the same. In fact, the family of the hostage are supporting the prosecutor. So I I, I will say I saw the US government reacting that way, Germany and Canada reacting that way. I don't Netanyahu, but the prosecutor never say that equal is a mistake. The prosecutor say clearly the House leaders commit these crimes that they're completely different than the allegations against Netanyahu and Gallant. So there's no, I think it's, it's an excuse. I, I don't understand how it's possible to discuss, it's wrong to pursue good boats at the same time into to discuss the crimes committed, the crimes committed, right. But so you were chief prosecutor and there was always a possibility about the timing and the way you disclose warrants. Was it a good idea to disclose them? At the same time, if you say there's no real equivalence between the target being targeted, was it a mistake maybe by Karim Khan to do so? Or was it done on purpose? Well, one interesting thing to be the chief prosecutor is those who support you don't talk and people attack you. Whatever you do. Imagine if Karim can prosecute just harmlessly this. Oh, that would be enough problem What's happened with the Israeli leaders then Imagine he persecute just Israeli leaders. That would be disaster. What happened with Hamas? So he did both. Oh no, it's wrong to be both. Come on, come on. He the the court is helping us to recover mental sanity, to understand Hamas commit massive crimes. Obvious, but Israel cannot commit massive crimes to to in in response. So that's obvious. And so it's helping athletes and OK, these are legal, cross legal limits. And something for me was interesting is Kareem candy is something that is unusual because I also consult advisors, sometimes external advisors to check. But he did publicly and a very distinguished group of six and they were public. So there are 6 very prominent international lawyers reviewing what he say and in particular one of them is Theodore Meron. He Theodore Meron is himself a survivor of of Holocaust. He, he was in a in a camp when he was young and and he also was a legal advisor for the Israeli government and the US government. So this is a caliber of these people. So come on. Maron has confirmed that it's perfectly right the request. So this idea that we attack the prosecutor into to focus on the crimes, it's a huge mistake, right? The prosecutor also said in an interview with with CNN that he was sometimes attacked, intimidated to. He said there was a senior US official who said, well, the ICC is for thugs like Vladimir Putin and Africans. You were the first chief prosecutor. Did you receive the same kind of pressures warning from Western states or others? Well, when when you have prosecuted you, you receive this pressure in the in the Iowa for three years managing the Palestine Israel case because of the me my time Palestine request our intervention and I concluded, I'm sorry, you're not the state. After that they became a state recognized by the UN. In my time, I would see what there was tough meetings, but you're independent. You can do it. In the case of Karim, it's public because they are, there are senators that who send letters to him threatening what they would do and even say that they blink and now is saying they will join the senator. So I don't understand that in the US they they impeach President Nixon and impeach President Trump for interfering with justice. OK, interfering with justice, it's a crime. It's similar at the global level, how it's possible that the US Senate and the US government will establish sanctions to a prosecutor into sanction the person committing the crimes. I think that's committed wrong right but the Trump administration did this with your successor Fatou Bensouda at some point. Exactly. OK, that that's why I admire what the what the prosecutor candidate and I think the International Criminal Court is showing how important to have a diff to have independent independent people to make judgment because everyone talk about rule of law. Law is important, OK Law has to be implemented by independent and impartial actors and that's what they are doing. And then US is now rejecting. Well, no, it's wrong, wrong and it's not It's not good for Israel. Israel cannot commit crime to protect itself. It's a mistake. Look, there's this International Criminal Code provide an opportunity to transform a war into justice for me. I'm it's amazing. You will never destroy Hamas, killing the soldiers use for Hamas, controlling the money and putting in jail the leaders that strategy and the ICC will do could do that. So help Karin Khan to conduct financial investigations. No one is focusing on the money of Hamas, right? Focus on yeah, Israel said that Karim Khan was about to travel to Israel so that he could see how the decision making process was made by the Israeli armed forces aid coming to Gaza. And that what he did essentially cancel that. I mean, is this your sense that Karim Khan refused to engage the Israelis? I don't know about that. I don't, I don't talk to him. But the, the, the, the, the, the best angle when the Israel can do two things. One, if an Israeli prosecutor start a case in Israel, a genuine case, that will stop the SEC definitely ICC cannot go ahead if there is a genuine national proceedings. So if Netanyahu go to a prosecutor in Israel and say investigate me and the prosecutor start investigation and it's genuine, that will stop ICC. That's one way to do it. Second way to do it is Netanyahu. He did to insult the court and he can, he has, I, I listened to him saying he has arguments why Israel is providing the humanitarian system. OK, go to the court, say that Netanyahu could offer the judges, don't issue a requirement. You call me, I will do it. I will talk to you, explain to you why I'm innocent. So they can do that. So there are different ways to engage the court and they can do that, right? So right now, what's ahead? Panel 3 judges has to decide whether to confirm the warrants. Is this given for you or could this be a change? Maybe some of the crimes could be taken out or they could be rejected. Or do you think the judges will go ahead and confirm it? Well, no. The judges are judges. One of them is French, by the way. The judges can decide whatever they want. Even timing is different in in the Putin case that they took one month, in the Bashir case took like eight months. They can decide to split the decision to do first Netanyahu and after Hamas or first Hamas after Netanyahu. So no, we don't know what will happen. It's a Court of Justice. So there are three judges, independent judges. They will decide right. If the prosecutor disagree, he can appeal, right, which he did in the Bashir case, if I if I remember correctly, if they're confirmed, this means that all 124 states party to the Rome statues are now obliged to implement those warrants. That is to say, arrest some of those or all of those who are targeted by the warrants if they set foot on their soil. This didn't happen happened when Omar Al Bashir was targeted by a a warrant. He I remember him travelling to South Africa and to Jordan. Do you think this will be the case? Well, well, she was at the beginning, could not go to South Africa. Then he was invited for a big meeting and then had to escape because the South Africa judge ordered his arrest. So he had to escape. Was a shame so and that's why President Putin even he received some guarantees refused to go to South Africa and to Brazil. So at the minimum there is Warren a constraint to the leaders but we can maximize the impact. That's why I think it's a mistake to focus just in the court. The court is doing what it has to do It's great and it's giving us a big I feel much better. OK, it's order law is perspective. Now the leaders have to act that way. For me, the reaction of the US German is appointing me how it's possible that President Biden, the German government is instead to focus on the crimes committed who by the way, they are talking about it, why they are rejecting the the court did exactly what they were saying because President Biden imagine his concern about humanitarian assistance so much that he built a port. He built the port to provide US humanitarian assistance. So how is possible that he is still to say, look, President Yahoo, you should you can you can commit a crime now clearly how is possible that he's not he's now targeting the prosecutor. That's why it's not about what the court will do is how states react to this. Luis Moreno Campo, that's all we have time for. And thank you very much for appearing here on France 24 from Washington, DC. And thank you all for watching this show.