O'Gorman v Hackett: We interviewed the two hopefuls vying to take over as Green Party leader

NO SOONER HAD Eamon Ryan said he was standing down as leader of the Green Party, the candidates vying for his job were out of the traps.

There are two candidates who are looking to take over - Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth Roderic O’Gorman and Minister of State for Land Use and Biodiversity in the Department of Agriculture Senator Pippa Hackett.

O’Gorman’s core campaign message as he appeals to Green Party members to choose him as their leader is that he wants the party to have a greater focus on social issues.

Hackett meanwhile believes there has been “a disconnect” between the voters and what the party is trying to achieve. She said she believes her role now is to bridge those divides.

We spoke to both candidates about their priorities. Here’s what they had to say…

What is their vision for the party’s future?

When asked if he has a different vision for the party, O’Gorman’s response was “absolutely”.

He spoke about the desire to broaden the party’s policy direction, particularly going into the next general election.

“People know what we’ve achieved in the area of climate, in the area of nature restoration. I think our credentials there are really strong.”

He added that he wants to see the Green Party speak more about issues like women’s healthcare and housing, and the things the party has achieved on these fronts while in Government.

The Green Party has “never been a single issue party”, he said, pointing to the fact he took on a Department where he has been able to work on issues other than traditional green issues.

“We need to speak more to our social agenda, as well as to our climate agenda.”

Hackett said environmentalism is something that should underpin all the policies within the party, and questioned whether that should change.

It’s the reason she wants to be the leader, said Hackett.

“I want to see that as its core value because it underpins everything in my mind, it underpins social justice, it underpins health, it can underpin education, transport, everything, but that environmentalism has to be at the core.”

“I strongly believe that the Greens coming into the next general election should stand on the basis of being the Green Party,” she added.

Why did the Green Party do so poorly in the local and EU elections?

O’Gorman agreed that the lack of a “national focus” on climate change could be one of the key reasons the Green Party did so poorly, stating that the “political focus is different”.

Both candidates agreed that climate change had slipped down the agenda for some people in recent years.

A snapshot poll, conducted for The Irish Times by Ipsos B&A each month and which canvasses the opinions of 1,000 Irish adults, shows that climate change/sustainability, has fallen off the agenda in terms of peoples’ attention, standing now at just 3%.

The world had been rocked by three once-in-a-generation events in the last five years, he said – the Covid-19 pandemic, the war in Ukraine, and the subsequent cost-of-living crisis.

“And in those times, maybe people don’t feel they have the freedom within their own lives to focus on those major future-facing issues like climate change,” O’Gorman said.

Hackett said that even though the Greens have achieved “significant things in government” that have improved people’s lives, “not everyone is clearly feeling that and then that is a problem for us”.

She said if the party is to succeed in what they want to achieve, then it has to be relevant to people all over the country. “I feel very strongly about that… because ultimately, we have to bring everyone with us on this green journey, and it should be something people want to do,” she added.

Protesters at the Stonehenge site.

Last week climate change activists Just Stop Oil in England sprayed orange powder paint on the Stonehenge site. Two people have been arrested following the incident. What’s their view on this sort of activism?

“It is, I suppose, eye-catching activism and eye-catching actions are what helps generate the focus on climate. In 2018, 2019, 2020 Greta Thunberg and the Friday’s for Future protests were extremely important.

“Look, I personally would never want to see damage to historical artifacts or works of art. I don’t think that helps the movement. But I will say that it is important that activists in this area continue to draw attention to the seriousness of the situation that we face as a planet,” said O’Gorman.

Hackett said there’s always been protests, particularly around things like environmentalism. While she said there was a lot of attention on Stonehenge, it was “a bit corn flour or some orange paint, it didn’t damage anything”.

“Obviously the people who have to clean it up, it isn’t great, but I think it got the attention of people,” she said, highlighting that UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak came out and said it was shocking.

“But that’s what they want. And look, In one sense, I’ve no issue really with protests, as long as it’s not damaging something. I wouldn’t like to see them damage something very precious or something that’s very important for us, but I think they’re getting their name out there,” she said.

Hackett also mentioned how the same protesters poured a packet of orange powder paint over a snooker table at the World Championships.

“It was very effective. But no one was harmed in it. Okay there was a bit of disruption but I think they’re entitled to protest. You know, it is a serious issue.

“We saw this time five years ago we had crowds of young people on the streets, it was all climate action, it was very, very to the point, and you could say that has gone off the boil, there’s been other issues now. We’ve had Covid, wars, migration, all sorts of other issues have sort of filled that space.

“But that doesn’t mean the climate piece goes away just because it’s not high in people’s minds. It’s still there, and it’s not going to get any better without greens in government,” said Hackett.

A recent Red C poll found that a majority of Irish people feel the Government isn’t doing enough to tackle climate change but few want to change their own behaviour. Do you think people need to take more personal responsibility when it comes to climate action?

“What I want to see is governments do more to help people do their bit,” said O’Gorman.

When asked if he believed people need to take personal actions like reducing their meat consumption or reducing the amount of times they fly a year, he said “collective action is so important in terms of addressing climate”.

“And I think it’s really important that government is supportive of people’s actions, that no one should be left feeling that they’re carrying the can for this on their own. Government has to be stepping up to support at all times.”

When asked if people need to take more personal responsibility, Hackett said:

“In a nutshell, no, I mean, I think everyone can do their bit and people do try and people want to do the right thing. But we have to as government facilitate that.”

If she becomes leader, she wants to put more pressure on state agencies to deliver for Irish citizens, stating they are here to make our country better, and she would like to examine some of their mandates to improve them.

“I think we have to acknowledge what good work is being done, maybe we haven’t quite done that so well as a political party, or across the board, across all our members, we haven’t acknowledged some of the great work that has been going on.

“You have to bring people along with you, you have to encourage them… I think if you want that individual response from people, you have to make it easy,” she said.

On the issue of telling people how to behave, Hackett agreed that unfortunately, the narrative of ‘finger-wagging’ from the Greens is something that has “sort of stuck for a little while”.

“We do have to move away with that. Because ultimately, we want people not to fear our policies or fear us, we are here to help and make the world a better place and make Ireland a better country to live in.

“So definitely we should maybe have less of telling people how long to shower for and maybe have more listening and engagement,” she said.

What are some things they have done personally to reduce their carbon footprint?

“I’ve been a vegetarian since I was 20, it’s a good while ago now, more than half my life. We got solar panels on the house there about two years ago, I try and grow a little bit of my own food at home. I don’t drive myself, whereas obviously, in my current role, I have a garda driver, once that role is over, I’d be back to full on use of public transport and my bike,” said O’Gorman.

Hackett said she converted her farm to organic over ten years ago. She has an electric car for the last four years and she shops in charity shops 95% of the time.

“I rarely buy a new item of clothing. I do genuinely try to walk the walk,” she said, stating that as she is a farmer, she does eat meat. Her family’s food, on the whole, is high quality food that is sourced locally.

Does the party need to be more radical?

Since the 2020 general election, there has been criticism from some quarters that the Green Party has not been radical enough in its approach to tackling climate change.

There has been a number of detractors from the party in that time, perhaps most notably the party’s 2019 MEP candidate Saoirse McHugh who left the party because of its decision to enter Government with Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael.

O’Gorman told The Journal that he would like to welcome anyone back to the party who believes in its policies but adds:

“I’ve always been very clear, we’re not just a voice for environmental issues, we are a mechanism to deliver them within governments.

“And if we’re not willing to deliver, then it’s all talk.”

“We’re broadly positioned in the centre left. There are other Green parties across Europe and the world that are more left than us, but I think we’re pretty comfortable in the centre left position. But we’re a broad church, we have quite a variety of views within the party itself,” said Hackett.

What about alliances with other parties?

O’Gorman told The Journal he is “open to engagement” with other parties on the centre-left, after a general election.

“I’m open to talking to all political parties,” O’Gorman said.

He added that he likes the option of looking at how parties that have the “greatest commonality” can come together to create a programme to bring to other potential coalition partners.

His focus for this would be after a general election with O’Gorman refusing to be drawn on the possibility of a vote-left transfer-left pact among certain parties.

Said Hackett: “I just wouldn’t like to make any commitment either way that might well work. I mean, if some on the left align with our environmental ambitions, great. We managed to get Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil to align with where we wanted to go before we even engaged in programme for government negotiations. So that offer would always be there I think to any political party.”

The second of the Green Party leadership hustings take place on Sunday.

Members will vote online from 4-7 July. The result of the ballot will be announced on Monday 8 July.