Was a temple razed in Ayodhya? What archaeologist BR Mani says

People will come to know what is the fact who have biased opinion pillars of the mosque. Were there 12 pillars which were used in construction of the mosque Temple of Nagar style of North India before the construction of the mosque? Good evening Sir. I am I am you. This is Shankar Das, Deputy Editor with India Today Group, Digital and Doctor. We have Doctor Buddha Rashmi Mani with us. He is one of the most renowned archaeologists of India. I have spoken to quite a few archaeologists and everyone refers to you as Mani Sir. And why Doctor Mani is important right now is because he had led the team that conducted the excavation after the order of the Allahabad High Court in 2003 that was at the site of the Ram Janmabhoomi Mandir. I want to know first what was the technology used in the 2003 excavation and where exactly was it conducted So far as modern technology is concerned. GPR survey was done initially at the site in order to ascertain whether any structure exists below the surface and the alignment of anomalies showed that structures are there. And the court ordered that you follow the anomalies and excavate the site to confirm what type of structures are there, whether they are structures of any temple or below the mosque or any other construction. So that was the main aim. And with our traditional equipments which we normally use in archaeological excavations, we proceeded further. When you talk about GPR, you mean ground penetrating radar, right? Exactly what archaeological evidence did you find and which were the periods for a layman if we have to put it and not going into two details of the periods because history actually ground penetrating radar survey which we did that only showed certain anomaly. That means there are certain brick or stone structures because we took 1m gap and the electromagnetic waves were sent down the earth and when they reflected they were recorded in the equipment in the monitor. And that is how only a suggestive line of alignment was known. It’s not the proper object what type of objects are there, but it was just suggestive of the alignment which existed, even some plates etc. That was shown in the in the GP anomalies of the anomalies. So then you went ahead and did the real excavation on the ground. Yeah, that was before the court ordered for excavations and but the court had ordered Archaeological Survey of India to go for that. And then court decided that now things can be only determined through excavations. And then the court ordered that you only continue excavations or start excavations and then give your views. When you excavated, did you excavate below the disputed structure directly or in that area itself? Yeah. And and actually the the structure of Babri Mosque, it was already it had gone in 1992. So it was only in the shape of a mound with earth and debris of the mosque and earlier debris. So when we started our excavations, we did the layout of the entire area and after the layout in different trenches. In fact we had 90 trenches excavated at the site of five into 5 meters each. And then it was a new suggestive method, so that because so many people were walking inside, even the security staff was also moving along with their sniffer dogs etc. So in order to avoid that the fall of the sections, we made the sections 1m wide. So that is how we laid out the trenches and when we started going downwards. So we started getting evidence from late Mughal times. Then from early Mughal period going further down, we got evidence from Saltna period, then from Rajput period, that is early medieval period and then from centuries. What are the centuries starting from top? You can consider late Mughal that is 18th 19th century and then before. Below that is the Mughal period which is 16th 17th century. Further below is the period of early Salpna period which is around 14th to 16th century. Then further down Rajpur period or early medieval period from say 11th century, 12th century, 13th century, further down was the most Gupta period, that is 7th century to 10th century and further down was a Gupta period from 3rd century or 4th century to 6th century. And then below that was the level of Pushant’s the Kushan period that was second first, second 3rd century 80 and further below was Shung period, first second century BC to 1st century 80 and then further below was modern period from say 3rd century BC to 2nd century BC. And then, interestingly, he found remains of northern black polished wear, which was a deluxe type of pottery which existed even in the modern period and which was known to have existed from 6th century BCE onwards. But here we found that it was in existence from 13th 14th century BCE and the lowest level was 1680. We see so it contradicted earlier scholars who thought that the site of Ayodhya belongs to 7th century and it was taken back to 17th century. We see that is at least thousand years before what they had considered early. Now it goes back to the 16th century BC, right? And this site has been continuously in use. Do we does Is there telling evidence that it was a religious site or was it a residential site? And has there been like when? And then also do explain when it comes to the 11th century and then you are talking about the Sultanate pig. What is the last evidence that we found of a temple? And then from where does the mosque time begin there? Actually the site although it is it starts from 16th 17th century we see down onwards. But it was not a religious site at that time because we have evidences of so many drains, drainages, then ring wells and hearths which are evidence of habitational site until we come to the Gupta period. That is about 4th century AD. So from 4th century AD we start getting very huge structures which are suggestive of either a big palace or a big religious structure. So there is no evidence of any palace there. But there are evidences of sculptures, Terracottas, lamps which are and architectural members which are normally used in the religious structures, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain religious structures. So we can say that from Gupta period onwards the nature of the site was changed and it did not remain habitational site but it was changed into a religious site. And then from say 9th century onwards, 9th century to 13th century, we have evidence of three different temples which were constructed at the site. So the earliest one maybe belonging to around 9th century what we think at present, but it may be a century still a century earlier, older. But that shows that it is a part of a Panchayatan temple which is one of the 5th temples in the temple complex of a Panchayatan which was circulated. And above that was a great huge construction of about 60 meters in north-south orientation and about 30 to 40 meters in east West orientation, where we have got the huge walls and pillar bases. So suggestive of a huge mandar or Maha mandar that cannot be of any palatial structure that can be only associated with some temple of the Nagar style. And then interestingly earlier at the time of demolition of the mosque, a huge inscription was found which is called Vishnu Hari inscription which says that the temple of Vishnu Hari was constructed in the reign of Ghadhwal ruler Govind Cheng And very beautiful verses are cited there in the 15th line of the description. It describes the beauty and greatness of the temple. It says Tankpot khat Vishal Sreeni Shila Sangarati you hai Vishnu Hare Sri Sundaram Mandiram. So very beautiful verses are there. And also in in the fifth line it says Nir vyudhana pratima vigrai janmabhoomi. So the word Janbhumi also comes there. And then there are names that Vishnu, that Vishnu who had killed Bali. So that was definitely not done that. Yeah, yes, this Vishnu Hari inscription is from which century? It is from early 12th century. What happens next after the 12th century? What happens at the site then that? Yeah, after 12th century this, it seems that the temple existed for for next two centuries. And then when Babur came to India at that time, his army went there And maybe because of there is no evidence as such because when the army was in Ayodhya, those few pages of the Babar Namma, they are missing, missing. So that that might have contained details of how whether the temple was demolished by the orders of Babar or his Sibasalar Meerbakti himself demolished that it is not. But but his diary has pages which show him quite close to Ayodhya. That is there. Yes. Yeah. How I mean we know this evidence played a big role in the High Court and also in the Supreme Court deciding the case. But the Supreme Court said you know we do not have any evidence of a temple being raised to construct the mosque. What is your expert opinion on that? In our report also, we have stated that a temple of Nagar style of North India that existed at the place before the construction of the mosque. But there is no direct evidence suggesting that the temple was demolished and the mosque was constructed. What would you see? This is quite certain if this is. Yeah, so we did not interpret it. But if you interpret it, then it is very certain that the temple was demolished and mosque was constructed. Why wasn’t it interpreted? We were supposed no, we were supposed to write only what we have found. So interpretation part normally goes to the historians and such interpreters. But if you have the evidence that the pillar bases are cut, they are destroyed. The floors have been cut from places to places. That means that when the mosque was under construction, those damages took place. But it’s a matter of interpretation. Pillars of the older temple that existed or material from the temple where they used for the construction of the mosque. There were 12 pillars which were used in construction of the mosque and in the debris of the mosque we found some of those pillars. But it was not limited to those 12 pillars when the construction of the present Ram Temple started after 2019 or after the Shilanya stand by the Prime Minister in August 2020. Then the entire area was dug up and hundreds of evidences came out with more than 5060 pillars and some other elements of the temple like the Amalakas, the Karna Amalakas, the Kapodpalis and some of which we had found in the excavations. But when the entire area was just dug up with bulldozers, so all those things came out which I went. I studied there in 20/20/21. My question here is where material from the last temple which was constructed in the 12th century used in the mosque, That is the 12 pillars and all where they were used, You were saying they were there quilt pillars, were they used in the construction of the mosque where they and the pillars were used? At the places where the pillars of the mosque were there? And we have found in the excavation that certain water shoots which normally in the temples, in the temple architecture we call Makar Pranal. With the figure of a crocodile from whose mouth the water comes out. So those maktar banalas. They were also found reused in the foundation of the mosque. And not only that, other architectural members of the temple, they were also used. Why do people still refuse to accept the findings? There is a section of historians refuse to accept accept the findings, the ESA findings. There’s a bunch of there are there? There are people, historians, who have biased opinion and who have not studied the report. Unfortunately, the report has also not come out. While the Culture Minister had stated in the Parliament that this report will be published, but still it has not been published. So unless the report is published, people will have different types of opinions of themselves once they come to know how the things were found and what levels they were found and what type of things are found dating to which particular period. Then it would be possible for those people also who do not accept it to finally accept it. So the main issue is the publication of the report. Do you wish that the government comes out with the excavation report? Yes, of course, because we had excavated there and without even. I just remember that in the night we were writing the reports and in the morning we were going to the site sending every day’s report to the headquarters office in Delhi. So we had sleepless nights and with that enthusiasm we had excavated the site, we had collected the evidences which were required by the honourable courts. And if that doesn’t come out for the public, it is the public money which was spent there. And if public is not given a chance to see that, there is no meaning of that. And you also think that the publishing of the report would put to rest lot of misgivings and doubts, right? Exactly. Exactly. Because people will come to know what is the fact. And one since they do not, most of them do not know the details. Of course I have published now 16 years. I kept mum. I did not speak anything because I had given to the court and affidavit that we we are not going to speak about it. But now when the court has given order, in 2010 the High Court gave orders and then later on the Supreme Court gave orders in 2019. So everything is clear. So now we can speak. So I have written a few articles also about excavations waiting that the report arclights, the Survey of India publishes and removes doubts from many of the scholars and general public. What is the bottom line? And as an expert what do you you know, what is the take away from the entire findings? What can you say for sure from on the Ram Janmabhoomi site? One thing is very clear that the site was never abandoned. It continued in existence right from, say middle of the second Millennium BCE till today and in every period we have found evidence of the site having been very popular and very grand City site. But for the first time, the details have come out in 2003 excavations and those details are required to be published for because thousands of the objects, thousands of photographs and negatives we have submitted to the court. We have submitted all the details, detailed documents, documentation and scientific reports received from different institutions like Birbal Saini, Institute of Valley Botany or the science branch of ASI where different scientific analysis had been done. So everything is in the court and unless these things get published, people will not be aware of what was, what was the nature of the site and what importance was attached to it. You know, our report itself is about 3-8 pages in two volumes and 10 chapters with 65 line drawings and 235 color photographs which are a limited version of the entire thing which we submitted before. So at least that particular part is required to be brought to the knowledge of everyone. Now the great temple has been constructed. I was fortunate to be there on 22nd but my in my opinion for general public because public money has been used so the society also requires that the truth should be told to them and they can that can be told to them only if it report is published. Thanks a lot Sir. Thanks a lot Doctor Mani for your time for sharing all the information and I hope that the report comes out and everyone gets to know the truth that has come out from the deep down in the earth. Thanks lots Sir. Thanks again.