NDA vs INDIA alliance: Who'll win the Indian political league? Experts debate

Ladies and gentlemen, wonderful to have you all here in Mumbai. May I call on the stage my two first guests, Praveen Chakrabarti, president of the All India Professionals Congress and someone who's headed the data analytics team of the Congress and GVL. Narsimha Rao, former Rajya Sabha MP of the Bharatiya Janta Party and someone who's been crunching numbers for a long time. Please welcome both of them, GVL Narsimha Rao and Praveen Chakrabarti. Hello and welcome ladies and gentlemen to this India Today Pop up election special. We are in the knockout stage of the IPL and I'm not referring to the Indian Premier League, but the Indian Political League. And the Indian Political League perhaps promises more twists and turns than any T20 match can offer you. I have with me two politicians who are also number crunchers and therefore have particular value in this final stretch of the elections. Please welcome Praveen Chakrabarti, the president of the All India Professionals Congress and head of their data analytics team, and GVL Narasimha Rao, sephologist in a previous avatar, now former BJPMPN spokesperson. Give them a big hand, ladies and gentlemen. Hit out or hit wicket. Since we are in cricket season. That's how we've titled this particular session. And I'm going to start with you, Praveen, because I know you're a cricket fan. Am I right to say that the opposition has gone into this election a bit like Bangladesh playing India in a World Cup knockout? So even if you might have the odd Bangladesh players score a few runs, most people believe that almost inevitably Indias going to win. In this case, when I refer to India, I mean the BJP and when I say Bangladesh, its the Congress and the India alliance. First, India is the India alliance actually. But be that as it may, actually it is like the royal challenges. Bangalore, isn't it that lost almost all the first few games, I mean six or seven games and then they've been back on the run and they have an important game today. So talking about cricket and IPL, Rajseep, really, I think to be very fair and objective, I think all these predictions about numbers and numbers of seats and all of these things are really just pie in the sky kind of discussions. I will tell you what is for real? What are the facts? The facts are the only number about this election when it comes to seats and seat prediction that was talked about was in March when the Prime Minister of India and the Home Minister of India set 400 bar. That was the only number that they put out. Between March 8th and May 9th, Prime Minister Modi made 81 election speeches. He said 400 power on average three to six times in every speech from March 8th till April 15th. Suddenly that when that vanished, the 400 power number mentioned vanished from his speeches. So one has to ask what happened. Instead of 400 power, it became Hindu, Muslim. Talking about cricket, he went on to say that the Indian cricket team could soon be full of Muslims. If there are talented Muslims, it should be full of them. But be that as it may, the real momentum or the meltdown that the Prime Minister has had is the only real indicator of how the election is going. I saw a headline recently which said in India now there is no Modi wave. The only wave is a heat wave and it is very clear that today's Financial Times in fact has a column that says is Modi brand Modi losing its luster. So this is the only pattern that we are seeing as elections have progressed after 5 phases. One thing I can say for sure, there will be significant gains for the Congress party and the opposition alliance. I can tell you that char. So par is actually back in the narrative for whatever reason in the last week, the prime ministers once again talking about it. But you can see to push you further that you still have a mountain to climb, that there are still as many as 224 seats, which in 2019 the BJP got more than 50% vote share. Out of the 303 they won in 224 they had a vote share of more than 50%. So what you need is someone to come in these slog overs and hit almost every ball for a six. And that isn't easy given where the BJP is in 2019. That's your big challenge. How do you swing such a substantial amount of voters? Now see if I mean mathematically, if your point is that there is a big gap starting with 2019 between where the Congress is and where the BJP is. Yes, its 52 and 303. So the gap is there. It is for everybody to see. Its huge. It is, it is there for everybody to see. But but let's not forget. I mean when these things swing, I think, I think we make the mistake of going into all these analysis of 50% vote share and not less than 50% vote share and close election. None of these things matter when there is anger. We saw that repeatedly. We saw that in 2004. We saw that in 2014. I will admit that 2009 from the between 2009 and 2014, the swing was massive for the BJP. Between 99 and 2004, the swing was massive for the Congress and the opposition. So when it swings, it really swings. Its like the Australian pitches. OK, when it swings, it really swings. Praveen Chakravarthy getting into the swing of things because GVL Narsibha Rao, while the Congress has this huge task of overcoming this wide gap, you actually also have a tough task of actually retaining your strongholds. In an arc all the way from Goa to Bihar, you won 90% of the seats. You in a sense maxed out. You won 254 out of 283 seats in a particular belt across north and West India. I am not including Jharkhand and Himachal in this, but in these seats in these states, you maxed out. You won 25 out of 25 in a Rajasthan. You won 28 out of 29 in a Madhya Pradesh, 10 out of 10 in Haryana, 7 out of seven in Delhi. All of that makes it very, very difficult. 41 out of 48 in Maharashtra. Do you concede? That's your challenge? How do you retain this Sounds very familiar because this is exactly the comments I heard in 2019 in the run up to the 2019 elections. Also, the same arguments were put forth even then. We had maxed out. We were supposed to have maxed out in every state and therefore 2019 was an election that was for the BJP to lose. But we failed all those naysayers. Every time you say 2014, what was the narrative? Oh, BJP can never cross 200 mark. 182 was the Max they reached when what Attilji was his popularity was at its peak. So what? 200 itself was a tough ask for the BJP. We won 282. The next time the same arguments were put forth UP. Delhi, U Haryana, the same states, Gujarat, Rajasthan, Where else will you win from? We we again fail that kind of prediction. We won 303 and this time we set out a target of 370. We are confident of reaching there, whether crossing it or reaching closer to it. We are like a team that is working hard, not expecting somebody else to fail and therefore you will get a pass marks like the Congress party. We are still talking of Char Sopar. We are not giving up on Char Sopar. Is it Absolutely. No question of giving up. But when to hype it, when not to hype? It is a political strategy. We don't have to talk about it every day in a political rally. We also want to excite our Carters. I think if you keep saying this, the BJP may have a tough, tough task ahead. It will only help us improve our tally because more supporters will come out and more Congress voters will go back and sit at home. OK, so you're saying every time I say that you're going to, Yes, it helps us. OK, it helps you. But tell me. I want specifics. You see its all very well to say teen, so sattar char. So you're contesting about 440 odd seats. How are you going to actually, where are you making your gains? You see you maxed out in certain states as I said. Where are you making all these major gains? Was this all three 7400 to use a word you use just now. Hype. This was a hype to intimidate Praveen Chakrabarti and the Congress. You were like the Old West Indian cricket team decided that before the match started. We've already won the match. Let's finish and intimidate them. No, I, I we are very realistic. Just because we make some claim, somebody else chickens out. That's not how it works in politics and nobody is a babe in politics. The point that I'm making is there are states where we will still make gains. We will retain. Please tell me Pradesh, you think Uttar Pradesh, we can't improve on our present strength but we certainly think we can win up to additional 15 seats in Uttar Pradesh that you're saying you will win 77 out of 80. Very much possible. OK, one one. Where else then entire coastal region starting from West Bengal, Odessa, Telangana, Andhra Pradesh. Tell me in which of these states I am not going to make gains? We will gain substantially in all these states. So every election there are some surprise gains surprises for the for the opposition and for the observers. Not for us, because we every election preparations for elections 2024 began more than three years ago. We have identified 140 seats which were difficult for the BJP to win and we put out, we worked out strategies for the last three years. All of us M PS MIAs Karakartas, we've slogged for three years and you think Congress party can come back in the last three years and based on some political discussions can can win the elections. That's not going to happen. Interesting. Yeah, you did identify 140, almost 160 constituencies where you finished second or third and you decided to focus on them which is an interesting strategy because Praveen Chagravarthy, you started off by saying this char. So power hype. Actually, many believe the real question is not whether BJP will cross char so far. That may not happen. But will Congress cross so far? Will you at least score a century? You cannot bring the BJP down and prevent Narendra Modi Ji from having a hat trick unless you reach a century. And I want to know a party which won 44 seats in 201453 in 2019, how are you making 53 into 100? Where are your gains coming from? See, like I said, I am not going to get into the numbers game and trying to predict seats because I think that is just being foolish in some sense because nobody can predict seats. But where are you making gains? I will tell you where. Yeah, I will tell you where we are making gains. If you just take the southern states of Karnataka, Telangana, Andhra, Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Puducherry and then you add Maharashtra to it, we will already have crossed our 2019 tally. We have just in the in the bottom half of the country, we would have crossed our 2019 tally and then we go up. We have significant gains to make in the Hindi States and we have gains to make in Haryana, Delhi. Please remember one thing. The Congress party by itself is contesting 300 odd seats. 328 In 2019, we contested 419 seats. This is the lowest ever in the Congress Party's history. What does that mean? That means there are strategic alliances at play. There are strategic alliances on the ground that are working, be it with AAM Aadmi Party, be it with the Communist, Be it with NCP, Be it with Uddhav Thackeray, Shiv Sena. And these alliances are what will surprise all of you and including my friend GVL Narsimha Rao. You know, there is one statistic, Praveen, that I like to throw at Congresspersons in particular. Of the 178 seats that the BJP and Congress were in direct contest in 2019, When I say direct contest between the two, you won 80% of the votes. You won just 12 of them. Please keep this in mind. 178 seats. You won just 12. Average margin was more than 15% in 2014. Of the 143 seats in direct contests, the BJP won 130. You won just 13. You see, you seem to be the Kamzor Kadhi. You're talking about alliances. Unless you are able to beat the BJP in direct matchups, to use another IPL term, how are you going to actually even reach 100 or take on the BJP? That's the weakness of your party at the moment. Were in Mumbai, the financial capital and the stock market capital. You know, in stock markets investing there's a saying and in mutual funds there's a disclaimer. Past performance is not an indicator of future returns. So we cannot keep going back on. This is what happened in 2019, then I can go back 1984. This is what happened to the BJP. 1999, this is what happened to the BJP. I'm going to the last two elections. I get that, I get that. Rajdeep. I think we also had a 2004 where everybody thought this was going in a certain manner. That's why I'm saying let's let's have some humility here. Let's let's understand that when this swings, when there is anger on the ground, when people are saying why is the Prime Minister only talking about Hindu, Muslim? He was our Prime Minister for 10 years. Does he have nothing else to talk about and now to vote Because again we are in Mumbai. Suddenly I don't know what the situation is with the top two business groups and the Prime Minister. He mentions them suddenly for the first time in 10 years. What is going on? What are these indications? So when these when the ground sentiment shifts, it can shift pretty drastically. Let us acknowledge that I want to throw one more data point before I go to GBL because the BJP vote between 2009 to 20/20/2019 in a decade grew from 7 crores in 2009 to around 22 crores in 2019. The Congress vote has remained static at 11 crores. So you're not getting new voters. How do I again, I come back to it. How do you take on this mighty BJP machine unless you get new voters or you're able to close the gap in these direct matchups? See, I think, I think it is a no brainer that the BJP has grown significantly in the last 10 years. I think that's for everybody, including me to acknowledge, accept and admit and perhaps even congratulate the. But the point is now I don't want to get into how fair our elections are and those types of things because that's another issue that I I hope we will get into. If you're really, since you're using sports analogies, is this really a fair match? I think that's the next thing that we need to talk about. But I we, I completely understand that the BJP has grown. But what the swing is what I keep pointing to the swing and it could be the swing in terms of youth. It could be the swing in terms of identity groups. It could be the swing in terms of states, voters in states when they swing, Even if 5% of committed BJP voters not committed, meaning over the last 10 years, if they swing, that's a swing of 10%. OK, you need a Mitchell Stark basically somewhere in the Congress ranks to really swing the ball in these early overs. But GVL Narsimha Rao, one very interesting statistic again and we are focusing on data at the moment. 132, one, three, two of your sit out of the 303 sitting M PS have been changed by the BJP. Almost 30% of your M PS are M PS who have come are candidates who come from other parties. To you, you seem to be welcoming one and all. It almost seems you lack confidence in your own M PS. Imagine you've changed 40% of your sitting M PS. Isn't that a clear indication of local anti incumbency? That your M PS are not good enough that you have to change 40% of them. If you've done such a remarkable job in 10 years, why do you do you need to change 40% of your sitting MPs or bring in people whom you called corrupt only the other day? We are in the same state where you called certain leaders corrupt and said you would do Chucky pissing and send them to jail. And those leaders are happily sharing a platform to you. Yeah, public hair? Yeah Sub Janti. Yeah, GVL, a significant number of candidates have been M, PS have been candidates have been changed. But that's a part of the game now that you're talking about cricket. So in cricket, do you go with the same team every match? The captain is the is. The real strength of this team is Prime Minister Modiji. He is the captain of the team. People have trust in him and he has he has the he. He is allowed to choose his own team members, but if some members of the team have not performed or cannot win, this cannot play well in this particular innings because of certain factors. I think as a smart captain he will make the changes and a good team is seem to be a stable team. You seem to be effectively admitting Sir one minute. You seem to be effectively admitting that 40% of your team is not good enough. No, not all. Your you're putting all your focus on the captain. The other ten players don't matter. You can change them because people will vote for your captain. Razdeep we they have a strategy where a large number of M PS have contested as ML as gone to states, as Chief ministers, as ministers, as speakers. I think that you cannot continue with the same team. That possibly doesn't help. I think you will have to do the necessary changes to infuse dynamism into the party. And it's not that people who have been replaced, they have been jettisoned. They are being involved in some other roles, whether organizational or state assembly or somewhere else. I think that's a smart. You have to appreciate the BJP strategy and I'm sure this will be your analysis on the 4th evening. How smartly Modi has made these effective changes to to to win a massive victory for the third time over. Well I will can see that in 2019 90% of your new M PS or the M PS you change did win the election. So maybe there's a strategy there though 40% seems rather excessive number. But I want to come to you GVL as someone who's done a lot of sephology and look at something which seems to some observers to be strange, interesting, intriguing, which is turn out in the first round. In the 1st 2 rounds, average voter turn out declined by about 3 to 4% even after the final figures are out. And there was a sense that the BJP got worried, particularly after the first round that maybe our voters are not coming to the polling booths. Which is why, as Praveen Chakrabarti seems to suggest, the Prime Minister change strategy. Enough of Vicksit Bharat, let's go back to Hindu Muslim. Is that true or not that somewhere that first round? In a way, spooked the BJP. Yes or no? No. Because I think the focus on his speeches, even now throughout his campaign has been on development, has been on guarantee for development, on how we have delivered in 10 years, how we have become the 5th largest economy in the world, how in 10 years we will become the third largest economy. Take out today's newspapers, the front page ads. We talk about what India will be five years from now on the Prime Minister Modi. So our focus is entirely on development. But in a in five rallies that Prime Minister speaks in a day where he speaks for nearly five hours. I think there will be. He will be covering a wide array of topics. You cannot allow opposition to run away with polarization and not to highlight this factor, I think I take your point. But you know we are in Mumbai and I saw the ads in the Marathi papers, Gujarati papers and even some English papers in Mumbai before the election suggesting that if the Congress or the opposition comes to power, people will be celebrating in Pakistan and effectively seemingly suggesting that the opposition is hand in glove with Pakistan. Praveen Chakravarti mentioned the Prime Minister went to the extent of saying even in the cricket team there will be reservations for Muslims. Was that do you believe that's the kind of politics that should be practiced? The Election Commission has today come out and come out very strongly and said these kind of speeches should be avoided. Honestly, Rajdeep, I think you go on to the streets of Mumbai or go to Karachi and ask people which party ask, Ask people in Karachi. Go and ask people in Lahore which party they want in India to win. The answer will be Congress party. I will, I'm, I'm making this absolute claim. Let anybody from your reporters go and ask. They will say we want Congress to win in India. So you're making a very provocative statement not provocative, realistic statement. You have not only leaders of Pakistan asking for Congress, Congress to be brought to power or Rahul Gandhi to be made minister, Prime Minister. But you go and ask average citizen, average person on the streets of Pakistan, they will want Congress to come to power because they have had it. They have never seen such a resurgent India that they see now. And the average Pakistani will not be happy with a resurgent India. I think if there is anybody think who thinks otherwise, I'm willing to have a contest. Pravin Chakravarthi. I mean, are we talking about the elections in India or are we talking about the elections in Pakistan? To the best of my knowledge, there are no elections in Pakistan. OK, why is Pakistan even part of the narrative? Why is a BJP person sitting in front of a national television channel and talking about Pakistan when the elections are about the world's largest democracy? That tells you the attitude of that party. Very simple. I will give you 1 statistic CSDS survey. I know both you and Rahul Kanwal like surveys CSDS survey. Ask the question, Should India be a Hindu country? Should there be Hindu Muslim politics? 77% of Indians say no. We reject it. 82% of Hindus say we reject it. We do not want this divisive politics. Can we stop talking about Pakistan or Bangladesh or Sri Lanka or even America? This is about India. Yes, Jimmy, there is something that the Congress people say and there is something that they practice. So far until the BJP emerged on the horizon, Muslim appeasement was considered to be secularism in this country. Even by an average citizen. Educated citizen felt Muslim appeasement was secularism because they are minorities in this country. Therefore, you should only celebrate Eid. You can have restrictions for Dusshera. You can you can do any kind of discriminatory governance. Tell me one instance in 10 years of Prime Minister MODIS role where any religion, be it Muslims or others have been discriminated in any policy of the government. I challenge anyone to come and mention one such discrimination. We have done no such discrimination. In fact, most of the beneficiaries of Prime Ministers programs are minorities because they are poor, not because they are Muslims or Christians or all the more. All the more all the more we practice the real secularism. So all the more than why mention Mangal sutra ghuspettiya? Why even get into that politics? If you are practicing truly nondiscriminate politics? Why inject that politics into an election which was supposed to be about who will build a fixed Bharat, you or them? No. But when the opposition indulges in vote bank politics, when they are only calling card is polarization. When they are doing it deliberately, when they tie up with parties which are patently criminal, when they have IUML as a part of their alliance in in the UDF you call you. I think BJP being called criminal is a joke because they are in company with the communal parties because, you know, the Election Commission, Praveen Chakrabarti has also pointed out that the way the Congress has conducted its campaign suggesting the Congress has stoked caste divisions, even to the extent of suggesting in the defence forces. According to the Election Commission, the Congress has tried to spark a divide. Rahul Gandhi goes into public meetings and said AAP kis jati ke hai ask journalists which caste they belong to, say how many owners are from the upper caste, how many Dalits, how many tribals. It seems that the Congress too, in its desire to get increase its votes, particularly OBC votes, has also been guilty in this election of some way stocking caste divisions. I will answer that. Before that I do have to respond to this. I was part of the Manifesto Committee of the Congress Party and I along with chaired by Mr. P Chidambaram. We wrote the manifesto. In the 48 pages of the Manifesto that is not a word that is mentioned about Muslims. The Prime Minister of Indias first response, first response to the manifesto launch was this is a Muslim League document. That was his first response. The manifesto has right to apprenticeship. What is Muslim about it? The manifesto says we will increase Narega wages. What is Muslim about it? The manifesto says we will double GDP in 10 years. What is Muslim about it? You mentioned minorities or no. I am asking you what is Muslim about? Right to accreditation. What is Muslim But no. No the don't, don't. You can't. Why the Prime Minister use the word Muslim. Muslim. You use the word Muslim leads as a euphemism with the Prime Minister. Use the euphemism with the Prime Minister not use the word Muslim. I think nobody is OK can be fooled. You know this is not our usual television debate. I don't think. I don't think the word reservation was expressed in terms of Muslims or minorities. But Praveen Chakravarthi get back the question I asked the your the manifesto does speak about and Rahul Gandhi expands on it further to talk about an X-ray that will be done of society to identify effectively socio economic disparities. You've endorsed A caste census and all of this has LED people to believe that you will only end up widening in a way caste divides in society. Jitney AB adi utna Haq which effectively means based on your population you will get reservation of. That's one interpretation of what the Congress is saying. I must point out there are three upper casts talking about class injustice. But be that as it may, the manifesto was about social justice when I talked about please read the manifesto because it talks about social justice. What is social justice? The question that Mister Rahul Gandhi is asking is if we know that roughly the Obcs, SCS, STS, tribals put together form 70% of India's population, why is it that people in the upper echelons of society, be it government, be it be it in other professions where representation is less than 10%? It's a very valid question. I think it's a question that every society asks. It's a similar question that we ask rightly in my view, about women when they are half the society, why are they underrepresented? It is a legitimate question in the sake, in the name of justice that every liberal society should ask. There's nothing to be ashamed about it. But what the question is, what does he say when he means jitney abadi utna? OK, so so the the first thing we must remember is this is not about snatching from somebody and giving it to someone else. We in India were not in a 0 sum game, OK? We don't have to snatch. And I say the same thing about things like taxes, wealth taxes or inheritance taxes. We completely reject it because we don't have to snatch. We don't have to make somebody poorer to make someone else richer. The same concept applies to social justice. Jitni Abadi Utnahat only means, and I will tell you what is in the manifesto. In the manifesto, it says when there are government contracts to be given, Should that be fair? Should there be a fair representation? I think principally philosophically and conceptually, it is no different from how we talk about gender justice. Gender justice is correct. Talk about social justice is also correct. You know, I get a sense though, GBL that during this campaign there's been a lot of fear mongering. The Congress has savidan khatre Mein hai. That is, the BJP comes to power. They'll change the Constitution. The the BJP seems to suggest that if the Congress comes to power, they will take away your wealth. APKA mangal sutra leelenge, APK bhas leelenge. I mean, you know, what have we become? Is this necessary to what will? Is it necessary to have this kind of rhetoric simply to enthuse an electorate, which seems fatigue with politics? What's the reason for it? I think you're only seeing one comment out of several speeches that are made in a day. But certainly such statements only get media attention. But the is its Sam Petroda not an advisor to Rahul Gandhi? Is he not a senior member of the Congress Parties think tank? Has he not during the election season, during the election campaigning? Did he not come up with this proposal? Did he not say we need to have the same kind of wealth tax, inheritance tax that US has A So certainly no, they let the Congress party put it out officially. Then we have nothing to do with On that statement they said no, we don't agree with that comment. But they never said Sam Petroda doesn't belong to the leadership of the Congress party or he doesn't represent the Congress Party one. So therefore you cannot blame us when we pick on those. We certainly think Sam Petroda is the brains behind Rahul Gandhi. A lot of people think that way. So certainly this is the idea that has that is going to be sort of injunied into the brain of Rahul Gandhi. So certainly its a danger. Let Rahul Gandhi contradicted #1 number number #2 when you say jiske Congress party, gender justice, social justice, these are all slogans for the Congress party. We have, we have actually delivered on them women's reservation, which Congress party with Sonia Gandhiji as the head of the Congress, did not deliver. They were in power for 10 years. If they had the will, they would have got it. They would have got it passed in Parliament. They did. They never, they were never intending to do it. So therefore this this gender justice is a mere slogan. Like Garibi Hatao was a slogan for the Congress party. The real Garibi Hatao happened during Prime Minister MODIS tenure, then Social Justice. We made BC NCBC A constitutional body, National Commission for Backward Classes. Why did you not do it? It was it was a merely A statutory body in the in the earlier avatar and if you really want to give more reservations, why don't you do it in states where you're in park? There is a Supreme Court Indirasani judgment which puts a 50% ceiling. So by merely changing even by changing constitution, I'm making it clear, even even if you amend the constitution, it can still get struck down by the court. They know it, they know it. But you know its interesting you're saying this because we are in Maharashtra where you've just given 10% reservation to Marathi. You also know its going to get struck down. You know the problem is all of you are playing this competitive politics over caste. In your case, you're accused of playing communal vote bank politics. You're accusing them of playing caste reservation politics. I just wonder what happens to the citizen. Have traveled around this country over the last seven weeks and I've seen that the ordinariness of peoples lives has not dramatically changed. Go and see Primary Health centers in rural India or schools in rural India. Shouldn't that be the debate? How am I going to transform the state of health and education in this country to build a truly Vixit Bharat? I mean, why is there not greater debate on that? Praveen Chakrabarti Rajeev, I seriously wish we did. We wrote the manifesto. I will tell you it is about jobs. The primary thing, I mean there was an idea called the right to apprenticeship in the manifesto. There's no, no discussion about this. We said we will fill in vacancies. We said we will double share of mining. We went down, went down to that specific detail. I know it because I was there. I was part of the process. Why did you do it? Why did you do it In the states where you were in power, Rajasthan had one of the highest unemployment rates when your government was in power. In Rajasthan, if you had created a model state, then you could have gone to the people and said, look, the BJP has failed on all these counts. We are coming to you. We've got a model state to offer. In fact, the opposition doesn't seem to have offered a model that can counter what Mr. Modi is offering through his Labharthis or beneficiary. I mean, so first, first, first Rajiv, we have to understand some policy. No answers here. OK, we state governments, especially after GST, cannot, cannot come up with new policies and fund it on their own. Its entirely dependent on the union or the centers. That's that. I know that as an economist. OK. Second, second, you talked about Rajasthan and you talked about health in the manifesto. We have actually said that we will take our Rajasthan Chiranjeevi health model across the country. It is a flagship program. It is a model program. So to the in the areas where we can, where there are funds, yes, we could. Can a state implement a right to apprenticeship? Can a state say I will double share of mining as to of GDP, It cannot do it on its own. This is a national issue. This has to be in the Union budget. You know, one of the things I've noticed on the campaign also which the BJP is tomtombing about. We've given 5 KG ration to BPL families and we've given it to 80,00,00,000 families for five years now. Is that something to be applauding or is that something to be worried about that we still have to give five crore, 580 crore people 5 kilos ration? Doesn't it suggest that for all the talk that we are removing poverty, the truth of the matter is people at the bottom of the pyramid still continue to suffer Now is that going to be seen as a an achievement of the government? The UPA could turn around and say they were the ones who gave a right to food and A food Security Act. Should we not be looking higher quality education, quality health Rajdeep, What Prime Minister Modi has done in the last 10 years is his report card is his primary reason for his reelection this time. That's how he got reelected in 2019. Not because of Balakot. Not because of Pulwama. You don't believe Pulwama and Balakot changed the 2019 election? They may have given. Certainly. They may have given a little more edge, but you don't win on the basis of one incident that happens or one one incident. If that was the case, many elections would have been won based on such one such tragic accident or an incident 10,00,00,000 people, more than 10,00,00,000 women being given free gas cylinders. For you it might look like a very small benefit, but for those 10,00,00,000 families, its a, its, its its something. They waited for decades. Why Congress could not do it 30% was the sanitation coverage in this country in 2014. Today it is close to 100%. Today you have every individual has a bank account. These possibly were considered not so important by the Congress party which claimed Garibi Atao and this prime ministers Gharib, Anna, Kalyan Yojana. The free rice started during the COVID period when you wanted to provide cushion to the to the to the marginalized sections, to the underprivileged, to the lower classes so that they don't suffer an account of Kovid. But when we realize that we have the resources, we increase the economy to be the 5th largest in the in the world. We have efficient, we have the sufficient resources to be able to give this free food grains. We are massively procuring food grains from the farmers instead of letting them rot in the food grain warehouses. We wanted to feed our people. What's wrong with it? They have enough money to buy. But giving this enough money, giving this extra money to them will help them to invest in education, healthcare. We have given 10,00,00,000 people. Let me continue let 10,00,00,000 people. We have given them Ayushman Bharat. You've given them 5,00,000 health coverage. Is that not a revolutionary step? We have now in this election, we promise 70 plus all those who are above 70 irrespective of their income criterion, they will be benefited by healthcare policies. So I think these are, these are transformational policies. Is that a sort of competitive beneficiary politics that we are into? Because there is Rahul Gandhi saying that the moment we come to power, we are going to give what Khatta khat. Is that the word use khatta khat. We are going to give 1,00,000 to every woman in a household. Isn't that in a way trying to compete with the BJP? OK, you are giving certain benefits through a largely banner scheme. For example, in Madhya Pradesh network, we are going to give you a Mahalakshmi scheme. Khatta khat. I mean have the economics been done? Have the numbers been looked at? Quick answer to that, Absolutely, yes. I have the full spreadsheet. I can send it to you if you want. But it is. I am glad that we are now finally talking about issues. We are talking about promises and what is right for the country rather than religion and identity. See first well be it food security, be it Narayega, all of these are safety net programs. These are safety net programs for people that should they fall like during COVID, should they fall out of the safety net this has to protect. These are designed as safety net programs and imitation is the best form of flattery. So I'm very glad that the Narendra Modi government in the last 10 years has had the highest allocation for Narega. Good. They're also taken on food security good. The question is, is this sufficient? And I'd be the first to say no. As a country, as an economist, I would like to see less people be dependent on NAREGA, be dependent on food security. That should be our economic objective. Our economic objective should be to minimize NAREGA demand. And that should be a good. That doesn't mean take it away. That doesn't mean force a reduction in demand. No. Do it through generating new jobs opportunities. The real problem we have to talk about today is lack of jobs, incomes, livelihoods. It does not matter whether we are the world's fastest growing economy or not. It does not matter whether we are growing at 10%, twelve percent, 15%. The fact is it is not trickling down to incomes and livelihoods. And to be fair, I would not say it's entirely the fault of the Narendra Modi government. This is an issue across the world and this is an issue that we have to contend with. Let's please talk about these, not whether our manifesto is a Muslim League document. OK? As we enter this last stretch of a few minutes left routes to power, we call this hit wicked or hit out. So I want to know, how are you going to make sure that you get your hat trick? What is your route to power? Because as we said, you've got to maintain, retain your strongholds and you're hoping to add in a few. Is there a worst case and a best case scenario? Is there a nightmare scenario that you have that you're this juggernaut stops at 250? Is that something you at all contemplated? And then you're dependent on allies that you mustered up, including the likes of Ajit Pawar here in Maharashtra, whom you called corrupt not too long ago and now have embraced Razdi? We don't have to worry. Unlike many teams which depend on the last 10 overs of the match, Prime Minister Modi batted all five years, all five years of his tenure. So this is a consistence building of the innings. So by completion of fifth phase, we have already crossed our target. The halfway target that you expected 272 easily you've already crossed 272 for the NDA and we will certainly reach our target 400 plus for the NDA. Certainly this is this is not based on planning for the elections. This is based on your hard work for five years and also organizational work for three years. We are a very live organization where you see activities happening all around the country. How do you know you've crossed 272 though? Is this your post poll which is telling you no. I'm saying with with with so many seats already polled, with only 120 odd seats remaining, we have already reached 272. That's how we will reach. So you've already you're claiming you've already you've already won the match. You see their confidence and their preparation. You've got to give the BJP credit for they've been working at this election for the last three years and they have in Prime Minister Modi, dare I say Virat Kohli at the top of their innings. I mean do you have a Virat Kohli equivalent A and do you have a route to power? Do you have a way that you can actually come to parts? One thing to say, we are going to stop the BJP at 250, even at 2:50, they will form a government. They've got enough allies including the Andhra parties of GVL Darsimha Rao who will happily join the government. So what is the Congress or the India alliances strategy to actually form a government? And who is your Virat Kohli? It is India. I know the media loves to do these personality contests. It is the India alliance that is the route to power. I think its a bit unfair to say that the Congress party, at least the Congress party has not been doing anything. I think the last time I checked there was only one leader, perhaps in the world that actually walked four and a half, 1000 kilometers, walked four and a half 1000 kilometers and then did a bus journey 6000 kilometers. I don't think that is called keeping quiet or staying at home. There has been enormous work. Could we have done more? Yes, I'll be the first to admit. Could we have acted faster? Yes, I'll be the first to admit. But having said that, you have to be a little fair and reasonable. Its not that we were sitting and twiddling our thumbs and to the extent that you know this talk about we are focused on them reducing, listen this is a seesaw. If somebody goes down, somebody else will go up. I mean I don't know what part of this. Most people don't get it. This is a seesaw, its India alliance versus NDA. So if NDA goes down, India alliance will go up. If India alliance goes down, NDA will go up. No, no. But given the wide gap, I'm asking you routes to power, what is the is there a route to power? They are already saying they've crossed 272. Yeah, according to GBL, Narasimha Rao, forget about round six and seven, its all over. How do you see? I mean is there a potential route to power? Because I hear Congressman saying, oh don't forget 2004, But in 2004 you got about 140 seats that the Congress itself got. So you had a route to power. What's your route to power this time? OK, first there have been 429 seats that have gone to polls. I will have a friendly bet with my friend GVL Narsimha Rao when the results come after phase five, I can guarantee that the NDA would not have crossed 272. I can guarantee that out of 429 impossible. Second, the Congress and the India alliance has all the certainly the Congress party has already crossed its 2019 tally, which you may argue is is a low base. I agree. I admit that already crossed from the southern states in Maharashtra and I will get, I will get into a bet for that. Also post elections we will do the math. OK, out of 429 seats, I have all the seats. I know exactly what's happened. OK, so that much I will tell you now. You're also basing this on a post poll, post poll, pre poll. All those words apart, I am telling you that out of 429 seats, there is simply no way that the NDA has crossed 272 as we stand today. You can take that from me. So what is your final number? Last minute, what is your final number on June 4th? We are still confident. We are still confident of crossing 400, tally 400 and we are not going to rest on our confidence that we have already won. We will. We will fight until the last ballot is polled on the 1st of June. OK, You want to fight? You want to give me your final number? No, I am not. I don't believe in giving numbers, but we will have significant gains from 2019. OK, let's leave it there. Remember last year the Indian Premier League was won with a six and a four on the last two balls by the Chennai Super Kings. They're out of the IPL this time. But who knows? In Indian politics, anything can happen. For now, both of you have given a teaser of what could happen on June 4th, and I've spoken eloquently on behalf of the two major parties of this country. GVL Narsimha Rao Praveen Chakravarthy, appreciate your joining us. Ladies and gentlemen. Give them a very big hand. Thank you.