Nicolle Wallace: ‘For a million reasons petty, shallow, and primal Trump does not want go to jail’

I think Mueller is a true Never Trumper. He’s somebody that dislikes Donald Trump. As you saw in Georgia, where the District Attorney is totally compromised, the case has to be dropped. We have an attorney general in New York. She’s grossly incompetent. She’s an evil person. She’s a terrible, terrible attorney general. The American people have been besieged with lies from the partisan witch hunt known as the Unselect Committee. On January 6th, as the rest of us breathe, Donald Trump attacks anyone investigating him. He has always done it aggressively pursued anyone seeking to hold him accountable under the rule of law that the rest of us live under. Whether it’s a special counsel, a District Attorney, congressional panels, and the criminal case currently underway here in Manhattan is no exception. But since this trial and this moment apart is that it may finally be the moment when Trump does so much that is so egregious, so detrimental to the rule of law and the human beings involved in this case, the jurors, the witnesses, that he may actually face a consequence for those smears. Last week, Donald Trump was charged $9000 for violating the gag order placed on him. That’s $1000 for each of the 9 violations. Didn’t sound like a lot of money, but it was important. Turns out, according to the judge in this trial, Judge Juan Marshawn, those financial penalties proved to him that they were not adequate. They did not deter him. So today’s court session. First thing this morning began with a forceful message from the judge, Judge Marshawn, who in addition to charging Trump criminally with another contempt of his gag order, fined him another $1000 fine for an attack he made against the jury. The judge also said he may be left with no other choice but to jail the ex president. The judge, addressing Donald Trump directly said this quote. It appears that the $1000 fines are not serving as a deterrent. Therefore, going forward, this court will have to consider a jail sanction if recommended. Mr. Trump It is important to understand that the last thing I want to do is put you in jail. You are the former President of the United States and possibly the next president as well. There are many reasons why incarceration is truly a last resort. For me to take that step would be disruptive to these proceedings, which I imagine you want to end as quickly as possible. The magnitude of such a decision is not one sided, but at the end of the day, I have a job to do, and part of that job is to protect the dignity of the judicial system and compel respect. A real moment from the judge today that left open the prospect of potential jail time for the ex president. It now hangs over him in a more serious way than at any other point in his life. While today in court we heard Trump and current Trump Org employees describe in detail the monthly payments made to Michael Cohen in 2017 that were set up to hide the fact that they were reimbursements for the $130,000 hush money payment made to porn star Stormy Daniels ahead of the 2016 election. Testimony that at times seemed dense and a bit tedious but got to the real heart of the case, including with documents. And that’s payments to Trump’s former fixer. It’s where we at the hour some of our favorite reporters and friends outside the courthouse. Washington Post Justice reporter and co-author of the Trump Trials newsletter, which I read every day. It’s fantastic. Devlin Barrett is here with me at the table. Former US Attorney and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Harry Lippman is here. And the host of the On Brand podcast, Donny Deutsch is here. I want to dive back into the testimony, but I have to start with jail Trump who didn’t go to a memorial for United States Veterans of World War One, I think and two in France because it was raining and his hair would get messed up for a million reasons. Petty, shallow and primal Trump does not want to go to jail. Yeah, despite his references to Nelson Mandela, we will not see him doing a 24 hour Nelson Mandela. Look, if you really think through and I remember interviewing the Wolf of Wall Street and he’s told me what is literally going through the process, what it’s like and what they examine and how they do things. And Donald Trump and we were talking off camera and you brought up the point in the in the last in the last segment that you know he won’t eat food when it goes on Ferron Factory. You have to use the bathroom, his hair, his makeup, his skin, his skin like he will be pulled apart. He doesn’t have the metal to do it. So anybody that’s out there saying, oh, it’s a great moment for him. And this is not a mug shot. This is jail. And Donald Trump is terrified. You’ve got to believe just by his, his issues with odors and and smells and and, you know, fear of of disease. This guy does not want to spend 30. Nobody does. But particularly this guy. You were in court today. What was this moment like? It was it’s the sentence we’ve been waiting for for over a year. There’s been a lot of tongue wagging from different judges usually to the attorneys. Not only did he put it out there, we’re now at the line. But he turned, as you said, and I’ve never seen this before, to Trump directly and he lectured him, I don’t want to do it, but if you force me to, I’m going to have to. It was slightly breathtaking, I would say, because of the the direct we are here. Here’s the line. That’s it. Devlin. You’ve covered Trump’s brushes with legal accountability. For as long as I’ve had a show on the air here, it’s never come to this, right? He’s never actually been on trial. A jury’s never been selected to just like and none of us will have any say in whether there will be a consequence for his alleged criminality. Just the jury will. But it has never come to this point where a judge looked him in the eye and said next stop jail. That’s right. And you know, there was a moment similar to this a little bit in the in the E Jean Carroll trial, but that’s a civil matter. And as much as the judge and he chirped at each other a little bit, there really isn’t a threat of incarceration in a civil case the way there is in a criminal case. And and there is a game of chicken going on here. And I don’t think it’s like an emotional game of chicken. I think it’s a very tactical, strategic game of chicken between these two sides as Trump tries to see what he can get away with and the judge keeps trying to draw a line and say no further than this Devlin, do you think it adds up to any calculation that he has to testify? I mean, he’s so desperate to tell his story. I remember you had great reporting while Mueller existed those 23 months, and at least once every 10 days he tweeted out, I’m dying to talk to Mueller. I’m dying to tell my story. I mean do you do you think this factors in it all to his team’s calculation about whether or not he takes a stand in his own defense? I think it’s a factor, but I don’t think it’s going to be a deciding factor because the things that will decide that it’s such a high stakes gamble for any defendant to take the stand. It’s particularly a high stakes gamble for this defendant to take the stand in this case. So I think Trump is going to play it coy and sort of dangle the the possibility right up to the very end. But really the stakes are so high. I I have to I have to think his lawyers are going to spend a lot of time and energy talking him into a place where they hope he gets to not testify. They don’t. I don’t think any defense lawyer wants that in this situation. You can almost see in the coverage, Donny, the as it always does sort of the the threads and the bonds between him and his legal team running a little thin. You can see it in the rebukes. I don’t know much about Mr. Blanche, but he’s not someone that was known to be rebuked by judges in front of court rooms and juries before he was during jury selection. I mean, I think what Devlin saying is absolutely right. But at the end of the day, Trump seems to always believe he’s his own best lawyer. Yeah, look, we’ve documented you don’t touch Trump without coming away with this thing. And, you know, obviously this is a very lawyer with a very good reputation. You know, I want to just go back to the gag order. And the judge has kind of put, I don’t say put himself in a corner. The judge has really kind of put it on the line. And how he drew a line. Yeah. He really like where if Trump keeps going, the judge literally has no choice for his own credibility. And I really believe I’m not a lawyer but just human behavior. And Michael Cohen is what remains. So the idea that Trump isn’t going to be his worst, like, I feel like no one has seen anything yet. I mean, the fact that Cohen is coming stormy. A lot of the witnesses have been people who remain loyal and admiring of Donald Trump. Hope Hicks said he was the best messenger. These two today, I believe, have lawyers paid for by the Trump org. I mean, Stormy Daniels, Michael Cohen would not be those kinds of witnesses, no. And he’s going to be fit to be tied. But Merchant was. So he was calm about it, but he was entirely credible. We are at an end here and it’s a it’s a sensible calculation on his part because he doesn’t want to keep doing these. You know, give Trump a little rope, he’ll take it. A little rope, he’ll take it. So he’s saying we are here, want to do it, but really we’re here. And I 100% agree with Don. He cannot now just ignore the next one. He’ll his credibility and the systems. I mean, it could happen while we’re on the air, that’s 5-10. That could happen in the next 15 minutes. Then what happens? Yeah, it’s been well, first of all, I do want to say on the whole, don’t eat his own food, etcetera. There’s a chance of the very first incarceration being like a couple hours in the holding cell in the back. But then he’s in the exact same position basically. You could hold it, in fact, something like that, but then he’s in the same position and which is impossible. My best guess he was chasing. He was sullen. I don’t think he’s going to want to do it. And the issue is really, can he stop himself? Will the sort of Tourette’s aspect of Trump, especially with Cohen testifying, just keep him from being able to muzzle it? I don’t think he wants to do it. Really get him going. I know more than still he does. Oh my God, something about those two guys. And look, Cole, everybody keeps saying, you know Cohen is credibility. He will be good. He he can be very charming what he wants to be. He really, really can. And the jury has heard him denigrated every single day that there. So the bar is is down over here. And I think, Michael, I’m not just saying this because he’s a friend of mine. I think he’s going to be in a really comfortable position. And I think that the more they cross him, I think he’s, he’s got the truth on his side. And you know, as any lawyer will tell you, once you have the truth, there’s just not much you have to worry about and deal with. He’ll be worried and then but they’ve seen him 25 times, right? He’ll be scripted to the comma. There is still 1 little thing that that I know you were talking before that everything’s all stitched up. I think today obliterated the idea that he worked on his own. But that conversation among Trump, Weisselberg and him, he’s going to be the guy who has to testify about it, and they’ll come after him on it.