Putin promises ‘immediate’ ceasefire if Ukraine drops Nato bid I Ukraine: The Latest, Podcast

I'm David Knowles, and this is Ukraine. The latest Today we bring you the latest military updates from across Ukraine, discuss Vladimir Putin's ceasefire proposals and we analyse the latest $50 billion loan to Ukraine agreed by the G7. Takes you through the most unimaginable hardships to finally reward you with victory. If we give President Zelensky the tools, the Ukrainians will finish the job. Slava, Ukraine, nobody is going to break us. We're strong, we're Ukrainians. It's Friday the 14th of June, 2 years and 112 days since the full scale invasion began. And today, I'm joined by our associate editor, Dominic Nichols and assistant comment editor Francis Sternly. I started by asking Dom for the latest news from Ukraine. So firstly, dozens of Russian soldiers are said to have surrendered to Ukrainian forces after the latter launched a counter attack around the northern or the northeastern city of Ovchansk. So in north of north of our Kiev here up in the area where the heavy fighting has been raging since Moscow launched an offensive in the area to that sort of north, North East of Haqib last month. So Ukraine's Third Assault Brigade released a video showing its troops taking at least 24 Russians as prisoners of war. The footage appeared to confirm earlier reports suggesting that dozens of Russians had surrendered around the town. Ukraine's forces have managed to stabilize the frontline in the last few, well, last few weeks, I suppose. Moscow's troops now appear to be bogged down and having suffered very heavy casualties. The troops who surrendered to Ukrainian forces were said to have mounted a failed raid on a chemical factory involved Chansk. These individuals were filmed sitting in a a school conference room or as part of a 28 minute video that the third assault, Ukraine's third assault brigade put on published on YouTube. Now, it's not clear if they were speaking under duress. It's not. They don't seem to be. And we've got to be very careful about prisoners of war and they have to be treated correctly. I did check before we came on out, I did check the Geneva Conventions to make sure that we were well, a, to make sure that we were compliant as reporters, but also to show you a glimpse into how prisoners of war should be treated. I won't read all of it, but the relevant passage in the Geneva Convention says prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity. Now we had a long debate here actually amongst ourselves about are we violating these by the on the public curiosity angle? We don't think so. We think we're compliant. We take that to believe. It's generally taken that that is, for example, what did not happen some U.S. forces down there and in particular in the Vietnam War when they were paraded through the streets of Hanoi and had people shouting at them, hurling insults. So being opened for opened up to acts of humiliation, ridicule, maybe even used for propaganda. That is where we think the line, the international line is drawn. So reporters such as ourselves talking about and quoting as I will in a moment from Russian prisoners of war in the circumstances that they seem to be held, we think we are entirely compliant. But what do you think? Let us know if you think we've got this one wrong. Anyway, the some of the individuals did speak on this film. 1 Soldier said we got an order to attack some positions inside a chemical factory. There were maybe 70 of us. We drove there at night on BMP's. So there's a boy Ovaya Machina Picotti infantry finding vehicles. The individual carries on and says the drones came almost immediately and wiped out just about everyone. So we've talked about this thing up involved chance repeatedly. It it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. It doesn't seem to be. It's neither diversionary attack for something in the Donbass, nor is it a particularly well supported major thrust. Or perhaps it was and it was blunted by Ukraine's third assault brigade. But Russian prisoners taken up there now next one overnight, a number of well, quite extensive air raid SAR in Surat Kiev region and reports of explosions in the city itself this morning, Vitali Klitschko, the mayor of Kiev told residents air defence forces are working in Kiev region. Stay in your shelters. The missile danger continues. We're not sure if the reported explosions were intercepted missiles or other munitions or if they'd landed, but no reports of casualties there. However, that incident was part of dozens of drone and missile attacks overnight across Ukraine and inside Russia. This is coming from Ukrainian officials. This morning, Russia claimed to have downed nearly 100 Ukrainian missiles overnight. Kiev said they'd shot down 24 of 31 Russian drones and missiles. So on the Russian side, Moscow said it had shot down 87 Ukrainian missiles that have been going for Russian military headquarters. They said seventy of those 87 were downed across the southern region of Rostov, which houses the headquarters of a number of military operations there. That's to the east of east of the Sea of Azov, so southeast of the furthest E you can go in Ukraine. The other missiles were intercepted inside Russia over the Kursk, Varanage, Volgograd and Belgarod regions, all of which apart from Kursk, lie on the border with Ukraine, Russian Defence Ministry said during the night. Here we go. You can you fill in the blanks during the night? An attempt by the Kiev regime to commit a yes right, a terrorist act terrorist attack with drones was foiled. Of course, it's Roding as drones again. One person's drones are terrorist drones. The others are peace loving, God knows what now. Vasili Golibeth, who's Rostov's regional governor, said there were no casualties in that city. But the attacks had sparked power cuts across several areas. And in Boronesh, a fuel reservoir was damaged by falling debris according to the governor Alexandra Gusev there now separately, UK defence intelligence today and their update daily update we're talking about they assess that Russia has tightened up its command and control over the irregular forces. All the other bits and bobs bolted onto the side of the of the regular troops. Now this is being coalesced around the 20,000 strong, so-called volunteer corps. Although quite how many actual volunteers are in it was up for debate, but it consists of reservists, mercenaries and ex convicts. This was this move to to pull all these other bits and bobs under one unified command. You'll remember was thought to be the reason for progressions moment last last year and his March on on Moscow. Anyway, they've now all been pulled into a single command and control framework and mostly used just for offensive action. So just infantry, PBI, poor bloody infantry. They are as many of the other Russian forces, but these in particular are poorly trained, badly equipped. They lack any decent leadership. They also don't have integrated artillery or air support. So these are when we talk about the well that you the phrase meat assaults just running at at Ukrainian guns. These are the kind of people who've been who've been doing that. UK Defence Intelligence says that they're they are Light Infantry without any particular heavy firepower or additional capabilities bolted onto the side like air support or artillery. And they use the term brittle. They said that that set up of just being Light Infantry makes them more brittle than regular Russian formations. As a consequence, Defence intelligence here say over the last nine months, irregular units have suffered a disproportionately higher casualty rate than regular units. This is probably what we've been seeing around the Vovchansk and Chasiv Ya areas where the daily average for May was well over 1000 casualties a day and casualties being dead, wounded, taken prisoner or missing. But the dead and wounded doing the heavy lifting in that, in that description. So probably what we've seen in Fovchansk and Chasiv, Ya, I think it's going to be interesting to hear, as I'm pretty sure we will do eventually, whether these Russians surrendering in the vicinity of Volchansk are from the volunteer corps or regular units. And then just one last hard military update, David. North Korea has sent at least 10,000 containers to Russia by sea, said to contain almost 5 million artillery shells, 4.8 million to be precise. So Shin Wong Sik, who's the South Korean defence minister, in an interview with Bloomberg, who's given these figures. And then according to South Korea media, Putin is expected to visit Pyongyang next week, his first trip to North Korea since July 2000. It's thought he may also stop off either on the way back in Vietnam. And it's thought that so reporting from the Kiev Independent, it says that it's they're assessing that Russia has been given been been giving satellite technology to North Korea in return and a few other bits and bobs, but mainly satellite technology in return for all these all these munitions, some of which we know the quality control hasn't been brilliant. We've seen a higher than average failure rate and some burst barrels. And they've been reports of Russian casualties, Russian friendly casualties, if you know what I mean, Russian forces that have killed their own people because the the breach explosions and so on. If these ammunition, if they're not, if they're not well, if the tolerances, the manufacturing tolerances aren't perfect, they can very easily go off in the barrel when you try and when you try and fire it. And that can that can kill the crew. There have been some reported incidents of that. And that's US update on the military side, David. Well, thank you very much. Tom Francis, can I come to you? There's actually quite a few diplomatic and political updates to get through. So where would you like to start? Well, thanks, David. There certainly is. It's been a very significant 24 hours in the political realm. I was going to begin with what on any other day would be the top story, namely the G7 agreeing a $50 billion loan to Ukraine from the interest of frozen Russian assets, something we've been waiting for a long time. It was widely expected, effectively meaning now, that Russians are partly financing the war against their own troops. But more on that at the moment, because I'm obliged to lead with a speech that Putin has just given in the past hour, setting out his frankly extraordinary terms for a ceasefire ahead of Ukraine's peace summit in Switzerland. Now, we haven't yet got a full transcript from the Kremlin, but the essence is that he wants Ukrainian forces to withdraw from the Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaparizer and Hazon regions, plus a rejection of all NATO accession plans. So this is less of a ceasefire proposal than a total capitulation to the principles Kiev is defending. If Kiev were to agree to this, essentially recognising all Russian occupied territory, cancelling all sanctions, changing language laws and implementing laws Russia deems right, it would be formalising annexation by conquest. Bear in mind, Russia does not control Zaparisia and had to withdraw from Hezon. And now Putin wants Ukraine to give both the cities and their millions of citizens, lest we forget, to Russia. And that's not even a proper lasting peace plan proposal Putin's put forward, just the terms for a ceasefire. As I say, giving up Hezon would mean Russia having once again a foothold on the right bank, immediately threatening Mikhayev and in the long term Odessa. So it would give Russia a launchpad for future invasions were the ceasefire not to hold. Frankly, David, as you can tell from my tone, it's a non starter designed to one imagines project strength and the idea that the momentum is with Moscow as well as enabling it to say, well, we've offered a ceasefire which Kiev has rejected because under no circumstances would Kiev ever accept this and indeed in the last few minutes has outright rejected it. One of the reasons for that, of course is that they will not count. And so I doubt they would enter any circumstances, however extreme by the way, is because the West is starting to cross some more of the red lines that were once considered sacrosanct. The big one just agreed that the G7 is, as I mentioned, that Kiev is to receive that $50 billion loan from the interest accrued by $260 billion in frozen Russian assets. In the words of President Biden, to put that money to work for Ukraine is another reminder to Putin we're not backing down. In fact, we're standing together against this illegal ingression. Now, he also announced that the US had signed A10 year security pact with Ukraine to continue training troops, providing weapons and intelligence. But Dom's going to get a little bit more into the details and significance of that shortly. As for this loan, it means that Russian assets are now being used to finance the Ukrainian forces with no way really for Moscow to stop them. It's a big deal, especially when one considers how that major US package we spoke about for so long at length because of its delay was $60 billion, so a comparable amount, Though we mustn't forget that what was so important, arguably about that was not just the money, but the technology and weaponry that came with it from Washington. Now, there was fear among certain G7 nations about what this might mean in terms of setting a precedent allowing assets to be used in this way, and perhaps, some argued, leading to a slippery slope where it became accepted that governments can seize the private property of citizens they don't like the finances, which of course would have major impacts on the global economy. Now, that's the slippery slope argument. But to stress, we're not there. This is interests on top of the assets themselves. The question is of course whether at some point it would ever be conceivable for the assets themselves to be used in order to be given to Ukraine, but that's a debate for another time. I know there are many Ukrainians who feel strongly about that, but nonetheless this is still a major step forward. Clearly we know that the Germany was one of those parties that was concerned. They have been appeased with significant long term reassurance, I imagine, about the fact that this will not mean the seizure of assets in other countries. It's also very vital, of course, for Kiev's long term strategy about funding. We've talked in the past about the impediments that have been imposed on Kiev as a consequence of their laying a lack of clarity about what might happen from 1 sanctions package, from one aid package to the next. This offers a longer term reassurance and fundamentally, it's yet another example of how we may, and I stress that word may have reached that inflection point we were discussing earlier in the week where the worst case scenarios for Kiev in 2024 have passed. But more on that later on. For now, I know Dom wants to talk a little bit more about the military agreement signed between Kiev and Washington yesterday. Yeah, it's not a huge amount more to add, thanks, for instance, because there's not a huge amount of detail. But let's have a look at what has actually been said. So this is, I had a look at the the US government website this morning to get the actual wording. And they say per the agreement. So in the agreement, the US and Ukraine will spend the next 10 years building and maintaining Ukraine's credible defence and deterrence capability, strengthening Ukraine's capacity to sustain its fight over the long term, accelerating Ukraine's Euro Atlantic integration and consulting in the event of a future Russian armed attack against Ukraine. So that's it. Now I've had a look, I've had a look at it. And so what's the, what do I think in there? It is tricky. And of course any incoming administration, new president could change this could, could, but like any agreement, it's only it's or very few endure. So of course it could change. I think it's notable that they talk about, well, first the time period, 10 years, ten years is interesting. That seems to be, I mean, it's a nice, nice round Number. It's used by a lot of a lot of international, a lot of agreements between governments. I think Britain's got what we've won for 100 years. So just why not stick another zero in there. But a lot of countries have gone for 10 years. Japan also yesterday signed A10 year agreement, defence agreement with Ukraine. But that's a decent amount of time building and maintaining Ukraine's credible defence and deterrence capability. So credible again, interesting word. Credible to whom? Now I guess you've got to any, any sensible analysis of that would be to say, well, for against Russia, it's not what what the US or Ukraine or France, Germany, anyone else might consider credible. It's it's whether or not they assess it would be credible against Russia defence and deterrence. So not just building up stuff to fight today, but to deter in the future. Interesting. Sustaining Ukraine's capacity to sustain its fight over the long term. OK, long term wrapped up in 10 years, I guess then say accelerating Ukraine's Euro Atlantic integration clear nod to to NATO there. So still not saying NATO tomorrow chaps or even next year. But accelerating literally implies going faster than the current state. Now I know that other countries, Georgia, etcetera that have been on the sort of membership action plan and waiting to get into NATO. So it's it, there's no set time period about it takes from application to joining. So it's difficult to say, well, if it's only going to be two years, you've accelerated it or it's only going to be 17 years, you've accelerated it. So might be a bit of a Mishy, Mishy term, but it did. It does speak of trying to get to the end point quicker literally and talking about the Euro Atlante integration. You've seen language recently from Anthony Blink in the US Secretary of State talking about, well, there used to be a pathway, pathway to NATO membership. Anthony Blinken has been talking about a bridge might be dancing on the head of a pin. But these people choose their words carefully. And of course, a path can go in many different directions. A bridge has one end and then another. So you're going in One Direction. So it's all pointing towards, it's all strengthening the language about getting Ukraine in. Now you could take the view it's just stroking their ears and being lovely to them. There's no, no intention That maybe is a conversation for another day, but you can't blame Ukraine for holding this up in the future and saying, hey lads, what about this end, what you've said you're going to do XY and Z, where's the acceleration, where's the bridge and so on and so forth. The last bit, consulting in the event of a Russian, a future Russian armed attack against Ukraine. I've seen references elsewhere, although not in this State Department document saying that that consultation, if there was ever so if there's peace now and in the future, there's another Russian armed attack, there would be consultation, direct consultation with U.S. officials within 24 hours. Now, again, what would come of those consultations? We, we don't know, but at least it, it's a firm commitment. So you could say it's all a little bit, a bit wishy washy. Does it really matter? And so, well, it's, it's happened. I mean, it's just the fact that it's happened has a strength to it. If there was talk of this 10 year defence agreement and everyone's going, oh, it doesn't really matter. There's only a bit of paper could be changed next year by another president. Well, if it was in cancel plans for a 10 year defence agreement between the US and Ukraine have been shelved. I mean, we'd all be going, wow, that's significant. My God, what's happened? A complete breakdown in their relationship. So that that hasn't happened. I know I'm getting totally counterfactual here and I apologize for that, but that negative outcome hasn't happened. So I don't think you can just say, well, yeah, this doesn't really mean anything. It it does. I think it does matter and where if you want any more. Where should we look for evidence of that? Well, let's go to Russia's foreign ministry. They've dismissed the security deal as, quote, just pieces of paper, Any, any deal, I suppose, Maria Zakharova, spokes spokeswoman for the Foreign ministry, quoted in the Russian media, said. These agreements are about nothing. They do not have legal force. Like, well, that's a shame because Russia has a track record of always respecting legal agreements and the rule of law. Anyway, she went on, she said this deals were aimed mainly at, quote, showing citizens who have remained in Ukraine that the world community seems to still be with them. Yeah, I think that's exactly what it's about. Miss Zakharova think actually hit the nail on head. There's proper even a stop clock tells the correct time twice a day. And I think she's absolutely on the money there. So I think it is significant. Of course, it's not NATO membership. Yes, Article 5 is the big beast in the room. This is not that. But it's it is a lot better than nothing. It's a lot better than just warm words and then stepping away from an agreement on a photo call. What would actually happen now? What's going to happen in the future with the change of administration, possibly or change of heart, we don't know, but it's a whole lot better than if it hadn't happened in the 1st place. So, yeah, I think take from it what you will, but I think it is it's got to be a positive step. Quite how big that step is, I think we will be debating that for quite some time. Well, thank you very much, Dom Francis, can I come back to you? You mentioned earlier you'd like to look at this through the lens of thinking about whether this represents a particular sort of inflection point for Ukraine and the future of Ukraine in this war. What do you think, Francis Stanley? Well, thanks, David. As you say, this is a key question, one that we were talking about earlier in the week, Dom and I, and I think it is. Well, first of all, I want to thank the expert listeners around the world who fed in their reflections on this. Obviously, to stress this is a very different question than how Kiev wins the war. And I want to emphasize that we're talking about whether this is an inflection point of the worst case scenarios in 2024 now having passed. And on that question, I want to fight for, thank Michael Bonus of Rand who listens. We'll know from his time on the podcast. He's posted a thread in direct response to the questions we were positing earlier in the week. And I want to quote extensively from it because I think it does warrant discussion and reflection. Quote, I want to highlight that Putin does still have one major conventional path. Russia has sufficient stockpiles of equipment to refurbish and deploy until the end of 2026. At that point, he will just have personnel as new production is sorely lacking. That assumes, of course, Putin's forces may be able to withstand the 1000 casualties per day. Until then, we don't know when the Russian economy, people, elites and military will snap. But Ukrainian forces too are not infinite and must be enforced. Preservation mode. Ukraine is in dire straits with more than half of its energy production destroyed or damaged. However, Russia is running a refined petroleum deficit. If Ukraine can continue striking refineries, Russia will have significant fuel shortages this fall and winter. But there is a scenario that can result in a breakthrough for Putin. Ukraine lacks air defences. It takes a lot to protect critical infrastructure. 2400 to 4800 interceptors will be needed annually just to protect against missiles. Based on simulations along with historical analysis, between 3511 thousand interceptors per year would be needed by Kiev. Total western production is currently at best 4600 per year. That is 5000 to 20,000. Interceptor deficit needs to come from somewhere. The good news is that there are two options to bring down demand. Fighter jets will help. Realistically, Ukraine needs 2 to 300 fighters to hold off the VKS, but the 150 it will have between is existing Mig 20 Nines and pledged F Sixteens, Griffins and now Mirages will make a big dent. Now that strikes into Russia are allowed, unrestricted strikes onto Russian airfields, primarily with drones, can drop the annual needs for interceptors. Below 4800. Russia has roughly 300 glide bomb capable fighters and roughly 100 cruise missile capable bombers. Roughly 1200 strike. UAVs could significantly attrit these Over the next few months. Russia would likely pull them E to safety and ending the air threat. If Ukraine does not receive more air defences and is not able to strike Russian airfields, this is the result. A breakthrough could happen and Western nations would be forced to intervene. Well, thank you very much, Michael for that fascinating analysis. To stress, I had factored in the likelihood of a ramping up of production and the impact, hopeful impact of jet striking inside Russia when I said that the inflection point may have passed, but that doesn't mean, as Michael says, that the danger hasn't passed and there aren't certain pathways through. Ultimately, it's a question of statistics and logistics, something that we've tried very much to keep a close eye on over the course of the past two years. But as I say, very much welcome expert reflections from listeners on these questions. It's always fascinating hearing your perspectives. Coming up, we hear Dom and Francis's final thoughts. Francis, I realise you've also got one other section you'd like to talk about before we go to our final thoughts. Francis Dudley Yes, Dom and I were reflecting on D-Day and being present at the 80th commemorations earlier in the week, and we had some lovely messages from listeners who enjoyed that segment. So thank you all very much for reaching out. And thank you too for those who got in touch to share their memories and reflections of loved ones who served in the war and the significance of the anniversary to you. So I'll just read a few of those now, Someone on YouTube wrote My grandfather was rescued from Dunkirk after digging and trapped on the beaches there. He survived the rescue and went on to be part of the D-Day landings with the British forces 11 years before my father was born. By grace, the God go I. I can't imagine one of those moments in history, let alone both. He's always been my hero, though sadly I never got to meet him. Thomas in the UK. My grandfather was based in Britain as a member of the ground crew for the American bombers. He's no longer with me, making the ceremony an occasion for sadness, but also for hope that our alliance will stand firm against what President Reagan accurately termed the Evil Empire. Your nation bravely stood against German aggression before the US emerged from it's dangerous isolation. If Western civilization is to be preserved, we must all stand with Britain and Ukraine now. Travis in the US writes. My first exposure to D-Day was through a photo in an elementary school textbook. It's a black and white shot from the inside of a landing craft featured in the photo, a disembarking soldiers wading into the sea and heading towards the beach. That photo always had a very powerful impact on me. I couldn't understand or imagine what those men were going off to face. I still can't. It is a great crime indeed that humanity will always find better ways to destroy itself as opposed to finding better ways to love itself. George in the UK writes. My great uncle was killed in North Africa and I often think about how what he died for is the same as what Ukrainians are dying for today. Pete in the US, My grandfather and great uncle both served in World War 2, the former in the Pacific on PT boats with the US Navy and the latter flying B seventeens in Europe. I feel like we're on the precipice of another such conflagration and so many in the West have their heads in the sand hoping it will all go away, just as so many hoped in the late 1930s. Just a couple more guy in Australia. The mention of the postcard being read at D-Day reminded me of my grandfather's from World War One. He was awarded the MC at Passchendaele, then died after returning from Japanese imprisonment, having been captured at the fall of Singapore in World War Two. I never met him, but his memorabilia sits above my desk so it's hard to have a tough working day whenever I look up. And finally, Trish in the US. My great uncle flew night missions over Europe and also several originating from Alaska. He would never talk of it. One of my grandfather's couldn't fight but was young and a physicist in the Manhattan Project, and my other fought in the South Pacific. He was a Bombardier. They're still taking bits of shrapnel out of him as they resurfaced in the last year of his life. I always felt an admiration for his service in particular because he had an Ave. of legitimate escape from it if he'd chosen to take it, but he did not shirk the duty. They are all gone now and I miss that generation of my family so much. I realise it was really the three of them in particular who gave me, from what was quite young, the firm principle that we either serve our country for freedom or support those who do so with every cell of our being. That it is an honour to serve and a gift to be served and important to be grateful. Well, thank you all very much for reaching out. As ever, it is a privilege to be able to hear your reflections. Well, thank you, Francis, and thank you for our listeners for sharing their memories and their thoughts there. Dom, can I come to you first then what are your final thoughts, Dom Nichols, a couple, if I may, please, David. So this weekend we've got the peace summit in Switzerland. We've, well, Francis mentioned earlier on that Putin's already been speaking about that. I thought it was, I thought it was quite notable, the things he was saying, typical style of an abuser when he was saying Russia's ready to guarantee the safe withdrawal of Ukrainian units and all this kind of stuff. I think we should look to more sensible people. John Foreman, former defence attache in Moscow and Kiev, who's been on the pod, friend of the pod, He said about about Putin's largesse on Twitter, John said Kissinger wrote that Russia seeks security only in a patient but deadly struggle for total destruction of a rival power, never in compacts and compromises with it. Their negotiation style is also typically uncompromising and maximalist. That was the end of John's quote. But I think it'll be really interesting to see if this idea of Putin's call in his speech today at the Russian Foreign Ministry, if it flushes out any useful idiots or Kremlin stooges in the West who try to portray Putin as an honest broker when it comes to peace. So do keep keep your eye out. Keep your eye out for that. And then just finally, I note today, just now, Kaya Callas, Prime Minister of Estonia, has said on Twitter, on the 14th of June 1941, ten 1205 Estonians, including infants and elders were deported to Siberia by the Soviet regime. Most of them died, only a few managed to return, but we remember them all today. Russia uses deportations as a weapon against Ukraine. So, Kai Kalis, they're very clear eyes. She always has been. But to our friends in Estonia, we are. We're thinking about you today. Thank you very much, Tom Francis, would you like the final words for today? Well, thank you, David. You'll be relieved to hear it's just a very short one from me. We continue to monitor, of course, the case of Evan Guskovich, the US citizen and Wall Street Journal reporter who's standing on trial on charges of espionage after being imprisoned in Russia for over a year now, something, of course, the Wall Street Journal denies in every possible sense. We now learn as of yesterday evening that he will be tried in Yekaterinburg. The Russian Prosecutor General's office has said after that, it was arrest in March 2023. If convicted, he faces up to 20 years in jail, and no trial date has yet been set. But clearly the intention is now for him to be tried for that case. We will have to see, of course, whether that case goes ahead. There have been illusions made from Donald Trump and indeed conversations from the White House about them saying that he needs to be released and whether there will be some sort of trade, who knows. But at the moment, a journalist is on trial simply for doing their job in Russia. And for that, we will continue to monitor the case as strongly and as passionately as it deserves. Ukraine the Latest is an original podcast from The Telegraph. To stay on top of all of our Ukraine news, analysis and dispatches from the ground, subscribe to The Telegraph. You can get your first three months for just £1.00 at www.telegraph.co.uk/ukraine The Latest, or sign up to Dispatches, our world affairs newsletter, which brings stories from our award-winning foreign correspondents straight to your inbox. 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As ever, we are especially interested to hear where you are listening from around the world. Ukraine. The latest was produced by Charles Gear and the executive producers are David Knowles and Louisa Wells.