Tory makes leadership bid

Right, let's hear from the Conservatives now, shall we? Steve Baker is the Cabinet Office minister who joins us now. Good to have you on the show. Thanks, Fab. How do you think the campaign's been going for the Conservatives? Well, obviously, it's been a rough campaign. I think we all accept that the danger now is a Labour supermajority and any government needs scrutiny. And that means having good quality Conservative MPs there to hold a government to account. So if the risk is a Labour supermajority, it feels a bit like you've kind of given up on winning. Well, we'd love to win, but I think people would go for if they looked at the polls and then saw me come on here and say that I thought we were going to win. I think we're, we've reached a position where we know that Labour are most likely to come to power. I, I've absolutely convinced that Parliament needs plenty of opposition MPs to function well, you know, the select committees to fill. And we need to make sure that there's a danger of a government losing votes. I mean, if, if Keir Starmer has a majority of 250 and he'll have practically untravelled power. And by the way, something which I think Jonathan didn't quite get on to that they, the Labour Party hasn't realised yet is since they were last in power. Everyone's on WhatsApp now. And I'm afraid with a 250 supermajority, we'll see that nothing but criminology happens. Which faction of the Labour Party is going where? And one of the things we've all got to do as politicians is cope with this great acceleration that's happened in public debate. And I don't think the Labour Party's come to terms. I mean, you know, a block about WhatsApp groups. I'm afraid I do. Yes, I do. And that's why I've taken responsibility. And I propose to Boris ways to sort that out. But that's probably for another time. But yeah, but I, I think that that's what's really changed in the last six or seven years and it's gonna require politicians to be constantly positive, consistent and to show real expertise in what they're doing. And I, I, I'm very doubtful the Labour Party will do that. I mean, you've been very honest there about the Conservative Party's chances of winning the election. According to the polls, they could be on course for the worst ever election result. You know, if that happens, do you blame Rishi Sunak or do you think that he's, I guess, paying for the sins of his predecessors like Boris Johnson and Liz Trauss? I think there are a great many factors at work. I think if we look at France, without wishing to comment directly on their results, you know, something's going on there, Something's going on in the USA. There are a number of factors at work here which I think are much more connected to global events than is generally acknowledged. But what I would say is from the polls that those polls aren't really reflective of a nation crying out for socialism. Certainly I'm finding that the public are telling me that they don't want a Labour government. They want. He's not socialist though, is he? Well, it's pretty centrist. He's following a lot of your policies. Well, it's very interesting you say that because when he says he wants to basically bulldoze the Greenbelt and build houses, or they want to use private, the private sector in healthcare to get waiting lists down, or he pours praise on Margaret Thatcher, it feels to me like he's manoeuvring to the right of his trust. You know, growth is his panacea to get out of our difficulties. And I, I think time and again, when you look at what he's actually saying, he's deliberately pivoting to the right. Now, this is straight out of the Blairite playbook. First, go to the right for its own sake. Second, relish the criticism from the left of your own party because it further shows your positioning on the centre ground. And 3rd, enjoy the damage it does to the Conservatives. And I think they're doing this time and time again. Could give a long list of examples in the press where where it's happening, but it doesn't feel to me very authentic. And what I think we should do as Conservatives is every time the Labour Party moves to a place where we would always have wanted them to be, for example, being willing to use the private sector to shorten waiting list. What? How I wish they'd said that in 2010 and been consistent about it. Well, as soon as they go there, we should help them keep going. At the same time, like you talk about Keir Starmer, you've spoken about global events, the Conservative Party and Rishi Singh, that needs to take some responsibility for this campaign as well. But I mean, whether it's announcing the election in the rain, leaving D-Day early, the betting scandal where you had, you know, some of your own members betting on the day of the election, it's been embarrassing, hasn't it? Elements of the campaign have been embarrassing. There's no point to denying that. Yes, certainly nobody with inside knowledge should be placing a bet. I mean, they, that they bring shame on themselves by doing it. You know, D-Day, I think I was very unfortunate. Prime Minister said it was a mistake. That's apologised. But yes, it's, it's, it's not been a great campaign, but it, I, I think many of us are fighting campaigns in our own areas, which we're very proud of. And certainly the public are saying to me that they would like good quality Conservative government. They're not, they're not looking for a Labour government. I think if everybody who wants Conservative government goes out and votes Conservative, many of us will do quite well. Let's talk about the future of the party, shall we? Because it feels like this is where the debate is going to go with the Conservative Party. The kind of battle for its soul, if you like. What are the lessons that you think should be learned? The first one, which is that we need to earn trust and the only way to earn trust in the social media age with this great acceleration, positive relationships, consistency, professional competence and expertise and to witness those things all the time. And that's going to require the party to internalise debates which otherwise have spilled out into the public domain. Goodness knows I've sat in this studio often enough and at times it's been necessary. Why, if I may, why was it necessary? If we hadn't changed the terms of our exit from the EU, we would have fractured the Conservative Party and lost to Jeremy Corbyn. It would have been a disaster. So on, on a number of these issues, what I've done, I've done to try and make sure we didn't go to extremes. But now that we're where we are, it's going to be really important for the coherence of our party to have solid principles practically applied to internalise those disagreements. So the first thing, you know, our party's going to mourn loss, losing the elect, losing power. The second thing that will happen is we'll need to earn the right to be heard. That will be done, as I've just mentioned. And then third, we'll need to set out a really coherent programme for government which I'm afraid will be able to fix the problems which I think Labour are bound to create. I mean, you have people like, I guess Andy St. for example, the former Conservative mayor of the West Midlands saying, look, parties win from the centre and you and you have others saying, look at the votes that we're leaking to Reform and to Nigel Farage. I mean, where do you think the Conservative Party should end up? But the Conservative Party stands for nothing unless it stands for freedom. So we should be standing for freedom under the rule of law, but we should always be moderate and temperate. I mean, the Conservative Party's at its best. David Cameron was a great exemplar of it and Andy St. too, turning up in a suit looking moderate, sensible and doing things which need to be done in a way that's clearly articulated and which people can go with. So no space for Nigel Farage in the Conservative Party. I think I've said that before. A person who has deliberately set out to destroy the Conservative Party cannot subsequently be welcomed into it. I mean that that is what he set out to do with Richard Dice. Unfortunately, his party's attracted a number of people who I would absolutely not allowing the Conservative Party. I'm afraid you know, Nigel can't have it both ways. If he wants to be a Conservative, he should shut down his party and join us. How about, you know, if, if the election is lost, do you think Rishi Sunak needs to stepped down as leader immediately? Do you think he should stay on for a period while there's a contest? What would you say? Well, I, I think that we all need to reflect and take stock when the numbers are actually. And that's certainly a question first and foremost for him and I would want to respect that. I've got a great deal of admiration for Rishi. He's a brilliant man with the highest degree of professional competence and everything he does, which I've seen close up. And he certainly deserves the dignity of making his own decisions in the context of the result. How about your own ambitions? Well, my main ambition is to represent Wickham from the government benches with Rishi. We've got to be careful with Ofcom rules. Can't talk too much about. Yeah. OK. I beg your pardon? Of course, but I would like to be on the government benches with Rishi as Prime Minister. And that would be my main ambition. Yes, But if the ball were to come loose in the back of the scrum, would you rule out running for the leadership? I wouldn't rule it out, no. But look, we've got to do one thing at a time. I'm widely expected to lose my seat. I think that we're actually neck and neck. The polls don't, OK, we can't talk about your own seat. I beg your pardon, but it it's you're not, you're not ruling out a leadership run, are you? I would not rule it out if the stars aligned. The reality is that my colleagues have sent for me before the referendum, after the referendum, during COVID and over net zero. And on all four occasions I've LED actual MPs to a great degree of degree of success and I wouldn't mind the chance to do it again. So you've got the, I guess, the leadership instincts in your mind. I've got 30 years of leadership experience in the armed forces, in the private sector, in parliament and in government, and I think people can observe that the things which I do are successes. Whether it's Northern Ireland. When I was a Brexit minister, people thought your atom would be a disaster. It was no problem by the time I'd finished with it. And I'm afraid I don't wish to seem boastful, but people can see that my record is one of success. It might sometimes be tricky getting through things, but you know, I do know how to get colleagues through difficult moments and crises through to success. But as, as I repeat, I really emphasise I have to take things one, one thing at a time. Sounds a bit, sounds a bit like a pitch to me though. Well, you forced me onto the territory. And if you forced me onto the territory, I'll give you a straight answer as I always do, but I am, I am fed up with watching a a sequence of people be extreme on one talent OR another. We just ideology alone is not enough, nor charisma alone. What we need to do is have somebody who's, as I say, professionally competent, consistent, positive, and can lead people with a degree of track records. So we'll see what happens. But let me be clear. I didn't come on this programme to launch a leadership bid. I understand. I, I, I dragged you there. Thank you very much, Steve Baker, Good to have you on the programme.