What's the central narrative of Mission 2024? Shashi Tharoor, Swapan Dasgupta share views on Rajdeep Sardesai's show

The elections of 2024 have rumbled on and have now reached the halfway stage. 3 rounds done, 4 to go. Half the country has voted and some trends are being picked up by analysts and psychologists. But there’s also plenty of speculation amidst jittery markets, local anti incumbency and of course the Modi factor. But is there a central campaign theme that’s emerged in the last month from Kashmir to Kanyakumari? What are the messages that have stood out in the election campaign so far? And how do the two parties see their position at the halfway mark? Were joined on the political rumble to answer all those questions. Two very special guests Dr. Shashi Tharoor of the Congress Party, its MB candidate from Thiruvananthapuram and three time MP and Swapan Das Gupta, former Rajya Sabha MP of the Bharatiya Janta Party and part of its intellectual cell. So 2 clear voices are joining us here on the show. We’ve spoken to them separately and we’re going to raise the questions that matter as we enter the halfway mark of the battle for 2024. I first spoke to Doctor Shashi Tharoor. Dr. Tharoor What according to you, is the central narrative of this 2024 election campaign so far? There’s a sense that we havent been able to pick up a dominant theme at the moment. At times there’s talk that the Congress started off about caste census. Now the BJP playing Hindu Muslim politics Ram on one side, Rozgar on the other. Is there a central theme, according to you, of this campaign? Well, I would say that what has happened, Raazeep, is that the BJP, which is specialized in setting the agenda of every election national law state for the last 10 years, has suddenly lost control of the narrative. And what you’re seeing is their attempts to move away from economic issues where there has failure has been spectacular. And from the alternative narrative of 2019, which was the national security narrative, which has also been a failure on the Chinese border, they decided they were going to go with the Hindutva narrative centering the campaign around the Ram Mandir and Ayodhya. And that fell flat, to their own surprise, because that was no longer enough. And as the India bloc came up with a series of issues centered around the well-being of the voter, the Nyay concept, the five principles of collective social justice, suddenly you actually had an alternative narrative that was commanding the space, which is let this election folks, be about you, the voter, about your well-being, about your life. And because the BJP didn’t have an answer to that, the Prime Minister, the Home Minister and other campaigners doubled down upon the Hindutva narrative and went into this extraordinary paroxysm of inflammatory rhetoric on Hindu Muslim issues, which I believe has been a sign of their desperation. But they have not been able to drag the election narrative back into that. The rest of us are simply, I must say, recoiling and revulsion at the kind of language we’re hearing from no less than eminence than our Prime Minister. And we are focusing on what really matters to the voter. So my answer is, the short answer is what matters in terms of a narrative today is what does this election mean to you, to you, the voter. And if it means a quest for social justice, we have the answers to that. If it means frustration about unemployment because you voted for Mr. Modi 10 years ago and he still hasn’t been able to deliver you a job, then we have the answers for that. If its frustrations about the fact that your income has dropped in the last 10 years, as 80% of Indians have, then we have the answers for that. And if indeed it is about the fundamental question of you’re finally asking ourselves what is the Modi government done for you other than give you wonderful rhetoric about Hindutwa and you can’t find a good answer, Then either you vote for us or you stay at home and we’re seeing examples of both in the first three phases. I think this is going to be a game changing election and the lack of a narrative as you see, as you suggest, is going to lead to the day when the only narrative that matters is the exit of this government. You know, you’re saying the narrative that the opposition has tried to put forward is the narrative of you of looking at individuals, making it about individuals and get they’re getting nyay or justice. But the opposition is also being accused of playing identity politics, Doctor Tharoor. If the BJP is accused of playing Hindutva politics, they are accusing the opposition of trying. Certainly the Congress and Rahul Gandhi are playing the politics of car standard identity of suggesting Sub Vidhan or the Constitution Katre Mehe is in danger. If the BJP gets 400 seats, your reservations will go away. So the opposition also is accused in a way, of playing identity politics of their own and the politics of fear as well. To an extent. I don’t buy that. I mean, frankly, all that Rahul Gandhi has said on the whole question of the cast census is don’t we need to understand what the picture is really within the country? I mean, ultimately, let’s face it, every States and every central government institution does offer benefits or withhold benefits on the basis of your caste affiliations. That’s the reality we can’t get away from. And that’s been the reality for many decades already. In those circumstances, surely knowing what exactly the picture is is an innocuous requirement. All he’s saying is let’s take a look. I mean, the word X-ray has been distorted by our critics. The fact is, what he means is an X-ray shows you what the picture is inside your body. An X-ray of society will show you what the picture is inside your society. All he’s talking about is let’s get a proper diagnosis. We haven’t come up with a prescription yet. Depending on what the findings are, there will be a discussion of the nation and only then will we even be in a position to do anything about that. But right now, all we’ve said about caste is let’s know what the reality is. Who can object to that? But the prescription doctor Tharoor, many believed that the Congress subtly or not so subtly is offering, according to the government, is redistribution of wealth. And this has raised concerns in certain quarters that the Congress, rather than rewarding wealth creators in the middle class, is talking now of redistribution of wealth. That’s the theme that the Prime Minister has picked up on. But Radhi, we didn’t. We haven’t said that. We haven’t said that. Yeah, you know, our critics cannot put words into our mouth. Yes. No, your our critics cannot define for us what we stand for. The Congress party manifesto is what we are running on, what we stand behind. I was a member of the manifesto committee and I’m astonished by the caricaturing of that manifesto we’ve seen coming out of the BJP. Number one, they claim it was written by the Muslim League. The word Muslim doesn’t even feature in the manifesto. Second, it talks about redistribution. They claim the word redistribution doesn’t figure in the manifesto. We’ve in fact talked about a stable, predictable tax system that will actually allow entrepreneurs to flourish in our society. So this kind of mischaracterization of what the Congress stands for or intends to do is part of the typical negative politics we have long associated with the BJP. And I’m disappointed that Someone Like You, Rajdeep, would fall prey to allowing their mischaracterizations to define your questions to us. Ask us about what we have actually said, what we have actually published in the manifesto, and we’ll be very happy to answer that. Doctor Tharoor, I have gone through your manifesto in some detail and the question therefore still remains is the Congress is still in a position to offer a totally different vision to what the Modi government is offering. And therefore if I may ask you this so that let’s get this absolutely clear, you are saying its a completely different vision to the Modi vision. But what are those three things, according to you, that you believe make your vision stand out and which, according to you in this campaign, have become your three calling cards, if I may call them that? First of all, it’s justice. I mean, this has been a problem for the BJP right along with us going back to the 2004 election when they grandly proclaimed India shining without ever asking the question who India was shining for. We are a party that actually cares about those who’ve been left behind, those are marginalized, those who’ve been excluded. And that’s the first major difference between us. We stand for an India that will actually give people opportunities who haven’t had them during ten years of Modi rule. Second, we stand for inclusion. They stand for exclusion. And that means inclusion of all people, of all religious and other community identifications, all castes, all languages or regions of our country. That means that the BJP stands for Hindi, Hindu for Hindustan. And the recent rhetoric of the BJP leadership has explicitly pointed at excluding one community from the benefits of Indian Ness. And that is the Muslim community who’ve been demonized as infiltrators who will demonize as people who don’t have the same rights as as as as Hindus in this country. So that’s the second major difference. The third major difference very frankly is one of diversity, both political diversity in the composition of the India bloc and the diversity in terms of the kind of representation you see across the India Alliance, India bloc as well as the diversity we celebrate within our parties. We really want to mirror India as India is or Bharath as Bharath is. We are not interested in a partial narrow minded, exclusionary version of the country that Mister Moody embodies and articulates. We don’t disagree that welfare is essential. We will probably do some things differently. You’ve seen from our specific suggestions things like the Mahalakshmi program and so on. And one final difference, or you only ask for three, is that we, unlike Mr. Modi, how are committed to rolling back many of his anti people decisions, pronouncements and laws. We will. For example, we are committed to abolishing the Agnibia scheme which is destroying the professionalism of our army. We are committed to not making it possible, for example, to persist with the kind of amendments to the UAPA that allows the government to lock up people without trial, without charge and without bail, which is completely inhumane and antithetical to the spirit of democracy. If you have a problem with somebody, by all means arrest them temporarily, will produce them before a court and charge them before a court. Mr. Modi’s government no longer permits that, having amended UAPA to lock up people without charge. We will also ensure that things like Citizenship Amendment Act, which at the moment has introduced religion into the notion of citizenship, we will not. We will ensure that Indian citizenship has nothing to do with religion. These are the kinds of changes that make us a very different government from what Mr. Modi has LED in the last 10 years. And yet during the campaign Doctor Tarun, we’ve seen what some are calling weapons of mass distraction and the accusation is also made or the claim is made that the opposition has thrown some self goals that the government has every reason to respond and then smash out of the park. So whether its a Sam Petroda calling one day for a debate on inheritance tax or remarks of which which suggest some form of racial profiling or indeed dare I say when you and leaders in Maharashtra when you are in Mumbai seem to suggest that 2611 a terror attack might have had a non Pakistan RSS angle to it which needed to be investigated. All of this has been used by the Modi government and the BJP to smash the ball out of the park and and and almost changed the narrative. No, no, no. That’s again a caricature of what was actually said and which is one of the reasons why I posted my entire remarks on the subject. We of course the attack was perpetrated by Pakistan directed terrorists. Of course we know that because we are the ones who arrested the terrorists and actually put them on, put them, put the survivors on trial and indeed having accumulated all the evidence presented into the world and executed the man. So there is no question, all the comment that was raised by the leader of the opposition Maharashtra was about one possible case of one person having been killed by bullets that did not come from this character. They killed 166 people. The only question is about one person, one victim. So again, all this caricature, we’re letting Pakistan off the hook, certainly not we have. We stood behind these words and don’t forget it is a UPA government that presented the case against Pakistani terror to the rest of the world and earned Pakistan the opprobrium it rightly deserved for having ordered and and and and and conducted essentially this terrorist attack on foreign soil from its soil. Whether it was done with the knowledge of the government or not as a different matter, but it was done from Pakistan. No one doubts that, no one in the UPS questioning that. Now coming back to your first point, Sam Petroda is a wonderful man living in Chicago. Why his comments should be the substance of an election in India is bizarre and it is again a reflection of the gullibility, I’m sorry to say, of our friends in the media in allowing essential irrelevancies to become major distractions because that suits the interests of the ruling party. You know, there are other interesting references in recent days, the reference that the Prime Minister made yesterday to Adani and Ambani, suggesting that they may be giving black money to the Congress and hence the Congress was silent at them. Rahul Gandhi has of course, responded strongly. But does all of this surprise you? Do you see all of these as being weapons of mass destruction in an election that doesn’t seem to have enthused the voters away from issues like Rosegar that you claim should have been the key to this election? Absolutely. I think it’s astonishing that it’s been done. I think first of all, it’s an indication of the Prime Minister and the BP leaderships increasing desperation. They’re flailing about for things to fling at the Congress given the fact that they clearly, I have read the writing on the wall. I mean, we’re not the only ones who can do the calculations coming out of the 1st 3 phases and the mood of the public, they realize that their number is up. And so there’s this desperate flailing about for whatever they can throw at the at the Congress. The examples you gave were were good examples and here’s another one. I mean, it’s laughable that when Rahul Gandhi has actually been attacking these particular gentlemen as having been excessively benefiting from Mr. Modis rule, why does Mr. Modi say why we stopped attacking them? Mr. Rahul Gandhi attacked him every single day during the last campaign. Throughout the campaign, there’s not a day that he’s been unrelenting on the subject. So I think Mr. Modi frankly doesn’t. He has no longer anything sensible to say, but he keeps hogging the headlines by saying things that are not terribly sensible and this is one of them. But one of the things that is making the headlines is Muslim reservation and this has pushed the opposition. Some believe on the back foot. There’s a belief that somewhere the B JP has chosen to interpret your manifesto, and this is the Prime Minister as well, that the Congress, if it comes to power, will ensure in some form Muslim reservation and thereby playing on the insecurities and fears that Hindus may have. How do you respond? Is this again somewhere where the opposition perhaps has allowed Mr. Modi to play Hindut for politics? When you have the likes of Lalu Prasad speak about Muslim reservations, play on his pitch Nazif you say you’ve read the manifesto, you know perfectly well there is no reference to Muslim reservation and the manifesto, I mean the fact of the matter is Mr. Modi is deliberately conflating an issue that the BJP had tried to flog during the last karnathic elections with the Lok Sabha elections nationally. Now we all very well know that in our country there are reservations both by the national government and by state governments and that those reservations will vary. And as far as the this particular Lok Sabha election is concerned, it’s about the national government and therefore it’s not a set of state issues. It so happens that in two or three states, yes, state governments have at different times implemented policies under which some Muslims have been deemed to be part of the Obcs. And in those states Muslims also benefit are also included amongst those eligible under OBC reservations. But that is not yet a central government policy at any stage, nor has it been proposed by us in our manifesto. So again, it’s a deliberate conflation by the BJP of the reality in two or three states. I think Karnataka, Tamil Nadu and Kerala have variations of this provision and and and and the Congress party’s national manifesto, which does not have this provision. So once again, we’re talking about issues that don’t exist. You know, it’s an amazing issue. We, we published A manifesto. I was very proud to be part of the committee that prepared it. And and I we all thought that this might be discussed by the public and we paid much attention to it. We never expected a day would come when the only discussion would be on things we haven’t said in the manifesto, but they claim we intend. I mean, this is absurd. I mean, this is almost a sort of Orwellian world that we’re living in in this particular election. Let me just step back a bit, Dr. Tarun 2014 was seen as an election, as a vote for change. People wanted to get rid of the UPA government. At the time 20/19 was seen as a vote for a kind of post Balakote muscular leadership that the Prime Minister was seen to offer. Prime Minister Modi supporters claim that this time voters want to vote for stability, for continuity, for more of the same. For example, continuity with five KG, free ration per month to poor families. The governments supporters say that this is an election where the majority of people want stability and continuity and that’s the real narrative away from all the other issues that are being made. Talking points and headlines. Well, because the fact is very simply, Rajiv, that stability to achieve what I mean the the, the question that I have asked Mr. Modi and his fans and his his Partys representatives in the last few years, What have you done for the people who voted for you 10 years ago expecting that you’ll be delivering jobs to them and they still don’t have jobs? What have you done for people whom you promised to double the income of farmers and you have not even raised farmers income by 10%? What have you done to justify the faith of those who said you would return 15,00,000 of black money for every Indian citizen? Put them in their bank account? What have you done for them? What have you done essentially to make sure that the AAM aadmi in this country is able to afford a decent standard of living in three square meals a day? You’ve imposed punitive taxes on fuel, diesel, petrol and so on, which have driven up the prices of all other commodities. And India is a very price sensitive nation. Even if you can say that our inflation is not high by global standards, it is high by what the Indian public can bear. So we are talking about basic issues of welfare. Stability doesn’t guarantee welfare, the track record of coalition governments in India. Has been far better than those who are one party governments when it comes to economic growth and human well-being. And I believe that the coalition government that the India bloc is going to bring into office soon after June 4th will be able to match the record of other coalition governments in giving India better economic growth and better progress than India has seen in the last 10 years of Mr. Modi. But Doctor Tharoor you you’re saying now that the India Alliance government will come to power on June 4th. The fact is this election has started with the BJP saying AAP Ki baar char so par. Even in the worst case scenario. Most sephologists believe the BJP could go down to two 7280 but still be well ahead of the India Alliance. Are you in that sense daydreaming when you say India alliance will form a government on June 4th? I havent heard anything from India alliance partners to suggest how they will form a government. Its one thing to say BJP won’t cross 400, but how will you form a government, especially the Congress which has to rise from just 53 seats last time? Look Radhi, it’s very simple. The fact remains that the half the seats have voted so far in the first three phases, the other half have to vote in the remaining 4 phases. And the trends emerging from that are a certain degree of abstention or absenteeism in the BJP strongholds and enthusiastic turn out for opposition candidates in our areas or the areas where we expected people to show up and support us. The signs we’re getting points to a dramatic decline in BJP’s vote. They only have a majority of 31 seats, that 303. Every indication is that the present trends continue. And that of course is an if that they’re going to drop well below 240. In fact, instead of upkeep our Charles or Power, it’s going to be upkeep our team so hard for the BJP and they’re going to lose at least 300 seats across the country all together for their alliance and they will end up somewhere South of 240 seats, at which level I think all bets are off. They may still be given an opportunity to attempt to form a government, but I don’t see the BP finding Ally is willing to Sup with the devil, as it were, at that level. And you’re likely very, very much to see the alternative India bloc coming together and some of the current fence sitters joining us as well. I don’t think any of us are suggesting that it’ll be a complete sweeping wave election for us. There’s no sign of a wave on either side, but I think the apathy and indifference of the BJP score supporters is enough to demonstrate that they are the ones who have much more to fear on the 4th of June. You know, all I can say Doctor Tharoor, is that the BJP seems to believe very clearly that its the Congress and opposition voters who are not coming to the polling booths, that they believe there is an inevitability to the outcome. But you’re giving a completely different perspective. So what can I say? Umid par duniya kayam hai for the opposition, you seem to live in hope and you’re certainly seemingly more hopeful than you were just a month ago. We are very hopeful. Radheep and I think the nation too will break to a new dawn when the results are out on the 4th of June. Shashi Dharul, thank you very much for giving us an opposition perspective on the state of play. As you see that the halfway mark in this 2024 election, let’s now get a perspective from the government side. Sapandas Gupta, former Rajya Sabha MP and BJP leader is joining me to give us where the government sees this election at the halfway point. Novandas Gupta Let me start with the same question I put to Shashi Tharoor which is 3 phases of the Lok Sabha election done. There seems to be no central narrative. One day its about Hindu, Muslim, one day its caste politics, Rose gar or Ram. What, according to you, has been the central binding theme from Kashmir to Kanyakumari so far? There is a central theme in this election, and that central theme is #1 about stability, #2. It’s about making India a developed country. And thirdly about the continuity of leadership. Now a long a prolonged, a slightly extended timetable for an election no doubt propels the leadership of all parties to give out additional new talking points. And those talking points sort of govern the agenda, the headlines for three days, four days, even a week. But the real issue of this election, as far as I think the BJP is concerned, as far as the Prime Minister is concerned, is that there will be that same element of continuity and focus which marked the first two phases, the first two terms of his administration. And he wants to continue that. And for that he needs an emphatic mandate. And that emphatic mandate he seeks from the people. The rest are interesting talking points. These are jousting as far as election year is concerned, you hit back at the opposition, etcetera. That’s part and parcel of the democratic exercise. But let’s not forget the main issue has always been stability, continuity developed India. You’re you’re saying stability, continuity, development, India. But on the ground, particularly in the last couple of weeks, particularly after the first phase when there was a low turn out, there was a sense that the Prime Minister and many others were moving from the politics of hope to the politics of fear. That’s why you had the kind of speech that was made in Baswara speaking about Ghus Petia. I was speaking about Mangal Sutra will be taken away and essentially once again going back to Hindutva politics, Hindu Muslim politics and looking every day for some new dog whistle. How do you respond when Doctor Tharoor seems to suggest that there has been a complete shift away from core issues to more divisive issues, what he calls divisive Hindutva issues? Well, he has his own Divi, he has divisive issues which I think and one of those divisive issues was this in attempt to get an inheritance tax to the back door. Now the prime ministers assault on that idea, this idea of contrived redistribution rather than wealth creation, which is what he was attacking, and the use of the Mangalsutra was really a very popular way of driving home a point. Now, the point which is not based on the manifesto, it’s not where at all in the manifesto, where is it the word? It may not be there in the manifesto, It’s not a way. Anyway, you may defend it. The point is you may defend it Rajdeep, but the point is there is the issue in their manifesto and the Prime Minister naturally chose to attack it in giving it a decent gap as he says because no one else picked it up. So he picked it up. Now as far as the what you call dog whistle is concerned, Hindutva has always been a part of the BJPS manifesto. The idea of Hindu nationalism, the idea that you have a that the cultural underpinning of India will actually be a factor in the elections or in the makeup, in the mental makeup of it. There has always been a part of the BJP’s understanding of politics and I think that has come to the therefore. And the way that the BJP views politics is quite distinct from the way of the Congress views. Politics has now become sharpened by the Inter, by the interventions of people like Sam Petruda etcetera. You know you that’s not the way we BJP does it and also Ayodhya. That is also a very legitimate issue in this election. It is a legitimate because the BJP, because the BJP without the BJP, the intervention of the BJP, the persistence of the BJP, the doggedness of the BJP and the sacrifice of the BJP, the Ayodhya temple wouldn’t have been there. So that point also is there. We havent. They havent hacked on it too much but its there very much there. And therefore if the news comes across from an ex congressman that the Congress actually who believes that were were were it to come to power, they would actually they would, they would do a Shabanu on the on the Ayodhya Supreme Court judgment. Naturally, that calls for a retaliation, and I think there’s nothing wrong in the Prime Minister retaliating. I think compared to many other elections, this election has actually been quite tipped in its character in itself, in in the in terms of the exchanges. And that’s because it’s been a very long election. And the summer heat, the excruciating heat hasn’t helped matters either. But creating fears about minority reservation, Muslim reservation, about redistribution, Yeah, just a minute. About redistribution of wealth, about inheritance tax. All of these seems to be creating somewhere fear mongering about the opposition rather than focusing on what many was hoping would be the real debate on issues of Rose Gar. How are you going to actually provide jobs to more and more Indians? How are you going to resolve the daily issues of the day? When you said that this election is about stability, continuity, developed India, you would have thought that would be the focus over the last few days. Look at the Prime ministers statement even yesterday where he spoken about ABBA, Ambani, Adani and black money going to the opposition. And why is Rahul Gandhi silent when the truth is Rahul Gandhi has been raising Adani every day. So is the Prime Minister resorting to what some call weapons of mass distraction? Oh, that’s your perspective Raj, even that that’s certainly your entire title to have that perspective. That the point is that the issues which the opposition has thrown up are divisive in nature. The Muslim, the the reservations for Muslims using a religious criterion is in my view divisive. But where is that? Again, it’s not in the manifesto attack, it is attack. Everything does not have to come from the manifesto. It can be raised through various ways. And Lalu Prasad Yadav, very rightly, you know, very proudly said yes we will do this and turn and then retraction from that. But my point is, is there fear mongering? Is there fear mongering? Either you assume the role of a Congress spokesman or you only let me finish. OK, go ahead. Yeah. Now the point is there are the issues, the inheritance tax, its a way of actually destroying the economy and that’s a negative feature of the Congress and therefore the Prime Minister has every right to attack it. The Congress that doesn’t have an answer for that because its warped socialism stood exposed to that. So you want an election, which is really what sort of an election is this? This is not a Saint Stephens College hustings elect election. This is something which is fought on the ground. Various different forms of issues are there and the Prime Minister will go on the offensive, not least to motivate the Carters that, look, this is not something you should be complacent about. Despite the opinion polls, et cetera, Despite the fact that most people think that the BJP is going for a victory, but despite the fact that there is Yasu Park slogan there. You’ve got to get your movie, you’ve got to mobilize and therefore mobilization, motivation and at the grassroots these are this is how its done. But do you think do you think, but do you think Doctor Dasgupta, just a minute, do you think that the opposition in some way this time set the narrative? For example, on caste census, the opposition set the narrative on what they claimed was their definition of nyay or justice, even went to the extent of saying savidan khatre meher, that is the BJP gets 400 seats, they will change the constitution and therefore the Prime Minister was forced in some way to respond that the government is actually responding to a narrative said by the opposition. This time, will you make up your mind either you said personally that the Prime Minister is actually making up issues along the way and now you’re saying he’s responding to it. So he he’s making up issues to distract from from what the opposition is trying to say. Look, the Prime Minister had every right to pitch the terms of the debate in any way they like, just as the opposition has every right to pitch it on the way they want to. That’s the way elections are fought, the way it’s it’s up to the people, it’s up to the electorate to accept which one is credible. Now the point is the opposition finds itself that compare or when it when it when contrasted with the force of a Modi speech. They go on the new offensive and then they start shocking, blue murder foul. You can’t do that now. Elections are not fought by by the by ticking the boxes of an opinion poll, sure, but they’re not far fought by there is no slogans either. They’re not fought. They’re not fought by There is in slogan either, Sir, when you’re talking about Rojgari, but they’re not fought by there is in slogans, the economy, etc. Those are issues which come across with the victim, Barack. Those are issues which come across with your track record and there’s nothing more compelling than your track record. And I think that track record speaks volumes. Having established the track record, you can then embellish it with attacks on the opposition, what they’ve said, etcetera, what they haven’t said or maybe even make a caricature of it. That’s part of life. That is how elections are fought. And I’m glad this elections are fought like that because elections in the end are also a carnival. It’s sort of boring exercise. You’re saying that therefore Vixit Bharat and track record of the Modi government, the Modi key guarantee is very much the central theme of this. OK, you’re saying its central. Then explain to me why does a headline come as it did this morning where the Prime Minister says the Congress is silent on Adani Ambani because the black money must have reached them. They must answer this by which tempo its reached them? Where is big sit Bharat, when the Prime Minister seems to suggest that if the Congress comes to path and reservations will be snatched away from SCSTOBCS and given to Muslims? When when he does that, then is he fighting on his track record or simply generating fear about the other side? Why a headline has come is to ask the particular publication or the television channel concern. I don’t think the Prime Minister can dictate the headline. What you can do is actually take the totality of his speech and say, look, did he talk about the fact that development took place in this part of the country or not? Didn’t talk about the Modi guarantees. Did he talk about them? Did he talk about the fact that the welfare, the architecture of welfare ISM in India has been established and made more transparent? Did he talk about the fact that the that the crooks in the system are on the retreat? Did he talk about it now? Of course it is the right of the editorial classes to pick up the newer element and this is what I’m saying about a prolonged election campaign. Then you know you’ve got to look for that novelty. The the editorialists have to look for that novelty and here they found him hitting out at you know, Adani or whatever it is, you know that that whole thing is, its a, its a one day issue, its a one day issue. Adani is one day issue. Its not a self goal in any way. Well, you can go, we will see whether whose goal it is. You know when the results come out we can talk about anything. You know the the election is not going to be resolved in the television studios in 2019. It wasn’t resolved in the television studio in 2014 when when Modi was appointed, when he was made chosen as the BJPS prime ministerial candidate. I recall in your studios there was a jubilation because he said the BJP has really, you know, shot itself in the foot. They’ve chosen such a polarizing figure. Not me, but there may be, there may be other, there may be other political commentators who said that. But let me ask you this 2014 and 19, since you mentioned it, 2014 swapan Das Gupta was seen as an election for change. People wanted change, and Mr. Modi became a symbol of that change. 2019, it seemed that the election became about a need for a muscular leadership, muscular nationalism, again embodied by Prime Minister Modi. What is it in 2024? Why is it that we are not seeing that kind of enthusiasm, at least when one travels among crowds that one sought to some extent in 2014 and 2019? Is it fatigue? Is it just that people have heard many of these speeches before? What’s the sense you get? Is there a 10 year age? No, its not a 10 year age. What I think has happened in fact is that there is a certain confidence that the elections have been predetermined. I don’t believe that that’s a very nice thing to happen. But anyway among people, among a lot of people, they said look, its settled, Modiji is going to become the Prime Minister. The question is whether he gets the BJP gets 300, three, 5400, whatever, whatever those sort of third numbers are being played at. But the important thing here is that they are choosing continuity. The ship of India is sailing very well, smoothly. They want no disruption in it and maybe that enthusiasm which normally accompanies elections where change is the main criterion among all the elections. I think 2014 had the greatest amount of enthusiasm on the ground. You know, it was quite boisterous, raucous, etc. Because there was a thing of change getting this guy in. You know, for a lot of people Modi was a not merely just a candidate, he was a project. And I think that project also came about into it was manifested in 2019 when it was showing that leadership determined leadership was a thing And now we have we India is in safe hands because India is in safe hands with the Prime Minister who’s who’s track record is there for you to examine and see and assess because it’s interesting what you say is an inevitability of the outcome may have led fewer people to get enthused about the election. Shashi Tharoor, Shashi Tharoor seems to suggest its indifference. Now one side suggests is there’s an inevitability about the outcome that is not, you know, I think the, the, the election Commission should actually examine whether, you know, having a seven phase election. I believe the seven phase election is very good for West Bengal. But A7 phase election is may not be the most ideal thing to happen for the rest for the entire country. So I mean maybe you have to you know, one size we have to think about it, maybe we must think about what 1 elections in winter as it used to happen but various things we can, as they say all that. OK, but but Swamandas Gupta this election started let’s say about 6 to 8 weeks ago in the build up AAP Ki baar char. So far we don’t hear that with the same effervescence. Is that a recognition that this election as it has gone on has become possibly more localized reflects certain diversities and election in each state has its own peculiar circumstances in a subcontinental sized country. Is that why the BJP perhaps has got also a bit of a reality check as the campaign has gone on the some of that bombast of Up Ki bar char So par seems to be missing for whatever reason. Whenever they shout you, you may not have gone to a lot of BJP rallies, you can see them on television. You can see whenever he says AB Ki baat and people spontaneously respond chasoba its its its sort of gone into peoples psyche. But I think its its important to recognize one thing that every election there is a pan in their dimension and then there are local dimensions. Now the Congress, which is or the lack of a Congress. I mean since Congress is not even fighting so many seats but the opposition which doesn’t have a pan India intervention here, they are more inclined to make it a election about potholes and drains. Whereas the BJP is more inclined to make it an election about leadership for Indias position in the world, Indias economy and where the country is going its to make it a Lok Sabha election. The others want to make it a municipal election. I think that’s a that’s a different approach. Those are strategic issues. Those are different. Making it a municipal election, they will be. So what’s your sense? So what’s your sense? Has it got localized in any way or is that wishful thinking? There is a local dimension. There is always a local, local dimension. You see in West Bengal where I am now, the BJP people are talking about Modiji’s campaign etcetera. But at the same time there is because of this Mamta issue that also is making. But if they make it exclusively A Mamta issue an election about Mamta Banerjee that serves Mamta Banerjee, that doesn’t serve the BJP. So its also do difference of how you strategize the election and you approach the electorate. And people have the different ways of approaching the electorate. The Congress and the opposition really want to make it far more local and the BJP actually wants to make it far more national. So at this halfway stage do you at all see any anti incumbency, any fatigue creeping in narratives about Rosegar actually being heard perhaps more loudly than there were 5 or 10 years ago? Is this one of the challenges the BJP has faced this time, that 10 years in power is a reasonably long time and therefore there will be an element of anti incumbency that they’ve had to deal with? Of course the 10 years is a very long its its a long time in power and its very interesting that in 10 years the element of anti incumbency has been very nominal. I think what’s what’s really think is that in as we saw in all elections from 2014 to 2019, midway in the election you get what they start talking about a late swing, which is a late counter swing and that the opposition feels buoyant and various people on the basis of anecdotal evidence. And you know if you look at the social media postings, you will find what what what I’m talking about of the pundits who go around saying you know the body language of the Prime Minister is a bit suspect and therefore that means that the BJP is doing badly etcetera, etcetera. Now I think my own assessment is that there is nothing which has happened in the 1st 3 phases and the and if you don’t notice that the turn out actually is beginning to creep up because of the the first phase. I think people took it a bit too easy. I think that motivation that the the encouragement to voters to go up and vote I think is giving it. And I think broadly speaking there is nothing to suggest that the assessments which people made at the beginning of the election should in any way be revised. This is not to say that I’m giving a number on on what it is, but I think the broad thrust, which is really what we can do at this stage give the broad thrust suggests that Prime Minister Modi is heading for a third term in office. The the reason I ask you that in conclusion is because when I put that to to Shashi Tharoor, suggesting that the while while the opposition was gleeful almost that the BJP may not touch 400, they were not giving me a number for the opposition. But he believes that the BJP is slowly dipping below 250, possibly below 240. You clearly don’t agree with that. Well, I certainly don’t see the BJP anyway falling below 300. You know, the 300 is the given and you, that’s just the BJP or the BJP and allies. No BJPBJP is there. And therefore we are talking in terms of how much close they can get to the South. That this despite the fact that they were, they had maxed out in north and central India in 2019. You’re still confident that the BJP will get 300. We, we did this BJP will get 300 plus, you know, we will get 300 plus. The Prime Minister has pitched a 400 election. The Prime Minister seems determined to see that through. There may be certain undercurrents which are not very obvious and people may be voting and we went. You certainly find that, you know, the South has produced dramatic results. The East has produced dramatic results and the North and West and Central have said, you know what we’ve chosen so far is very good and we persist with that. OK. So it could have happened. I mean let’s, you know the, the Trashes assessment of 2000 is based on wishful thinking, its part of the election game. Is it? Because I know nobody is really going to take you to task after on the 4th evening. When it doesn’t happen that way, its its part of the game. OK, I’ve recorded, I’ve recorded both what you and Shashi have said very carefully. We will keep it. We will keep it for the 4th of June. And its good to have, Its good to have two good friends. We’ve been debating with each other for the past 50 to 60 years from college onwards and we had different perspectives on how elections or how Indian politics and how the future of India should shape. How can this is part of the ruling of that. OK, let’s leave it there. Swapan Dasgupta, pleasure talking to you and getting your perspective. Thank you so much for joining me here on this political rumble. News and updates continue. On the other side. You watch two fine voices giving us their very diverse perspectives of the campaign at the halfway stage. Back in a moment. Let’s turn from there to our good news, Today’s story. A 19 year old girl from Pakistan received a lifeline in India. She was suffering from a heart disease, had to come to India for a transplant and guess what She underwent A successful heart transplant. That too free of cost. Its a way to bridge the divide. It’s our good news today’s story. 19 year old Ayesha Rashan has been a heart patient for the past 10 years. The teenager from Pakistan first visited India in 2014 to get a pump implanted to support her heart. Unfortunately, the device was not helpful and doctors recommended a heart transplant to save her life. But Ayesha’s family did not have the ₹35,00,000 needed for the surgery. That is when NGO Aishwaryam Trust and MGM Healthcare Hospital stepped in to help operations. A pileage you have boss are the problem. The infection Bahachadita are bleeding bleeding bhazad oditi Aisha go wet lagata us. Maybe Aisha trustee may help get her. Ayesha Rashan received a heart six months ago. The organ was transported from Delhi and the transplant was done free of cost. As luck would have it, there was a 69 year old donor in Delhi. It was checked technically challenging because she had a lot of puss around the heart. More than that, the heart was too big for her chest so we couldn’t close it. She had a cardiac rest. So it’s a great challenge to get back. The heart is not easy. Then finally did the transplant. Now she has a well functioning heart so she can have a normal life. Ayesha now hopes to chase her dreams. Transplanting is a Pakistani is a transplanting of the OR Indian motor fashion designer Future Manitha. Aisha spent the last 18 months here. When she returns, Aisha will take home fond memories of Indian hospitality. We generally say that heart melts. But here a heart has melted boundaries and is saving lives. Divya Pramod, Madhav pointed. That’s all we have on the show tonight. Thanks very much for watching. Stay well, Stay safe. Jahin. Shubratri Tamashka.