Emmanuel Acho & Noa Tishby: This Is The Most Uncomfortable Time To Be A Jew In Recent Modern History

Very fortuitous time to have my New York Times bestsellers here in studio. Emmanuel Ochoa is Here and Noah Tishby. They are authors of Uncomfortable Conversations With the Jew. Emmanuel is a former NFL linebacker, current Fox Sports guy, Emmy Award-winning host, producer of the show, uncomfortable conversations with a black man, and Noah’s a television producer in Israel’s former special envoy for combating anti-Semitism and delitimization. Wow, what timing, Unfortunately for your book, don’t for you personally. What has it been like seeing this, this raging anti-Semitism in this country right now? Well, it’s been #1. It’s been heartbreaking. But sadly, it has not been surprising. Really, not at all. Not at all. We’ve been warning about this for a very long time. My first book, Israel, A Simple Guide to the Most Misunderstood Country on Earth, talked about campus anti-Semitism talked about anti Zionism is the new manifestation of anti-Semitism. Talks about There’s literally a subchapter called this new hip social justice ’cause that talks about anti Zionism is this hit like cool thing that kids are taking on. And we knew this is brewing underneath the surface for a very long time. So it’s heartbreaking, but it’s not surprising. And I think this is a fortuitous time, as you said, for our book Uncomfortable Conversations with a Jew to Come Out because it’s probably the most uncomfortable time to be a Jew in recent modern history, Emmanuel. It’s like when you sometimes take a history class and then history comes to life and you’re wait, wait a second, we’re talking about the news because there’s everything to do with the history class you’re in. What’s it been like for you to go to school on the history of the religion and the people? And then this book comes out. It’s been incredibly educational. And the thing for me is, if you want to seek empathy in society, you can’t seek empathy without education, Brian. And that’s what I’ve realized is so often people are well intended but poorly executed. I want to help. I want to help. I want to help. But you have no idea how to help. The 1st way you can help is to help yourself. Sit down, educate yourself. Which is why we wrote the book Educate yourself. Learn what the heck is going on, not just in the world, but in your world. So, so often we think that the issues are so far away from us that I don’t ever impact me. It’ll never impact society. But on my plane flight over here, I was reading about how USC has canceled its main campus graduation, how UCLA has tension where a student can’t go to class. My alma mater, the University of Texas, There were state troopers on campus and students were being arrested and all these different types of things I was seeing all because of the tension, not just going on in the world, but the tension going on in our own world. So let me bring you to UCLA. And you posted this, but I want people to hear it at home. This is cut 10. This is a student, freshman, and he’s just trying to get on campus. It’s obvious he’s Jewish. I think he’s wearing a Star David. His name is Eli Sieves and he was actually on with us on Fox and Friends this morning. He posted on Instagram. Cut 10. Why can’t they go? Will you let me go in? This can be over in a second. Just let me and my friends go in to class. We’re not engaging in that. Then you can move. Will you move? We’re not engaging in that. OK, we’re going. We’re going. I’m going in. I don’t. I have my hands up. I’m not hurting them. I’m not hurting them. That’s what they do. That’s what they do, everybody. You guys are promoting aggression. So Noah, people didn’t see it at home. He’s just trying to walk through the middle for these women. He could have easily overpowered them. That’s not his point. No, it’s not the point. Listen, this is Germany 1932. It’s unbelievable that we’re actually living through this again. And I think to the point of anti Zionism being the new form of anti-Semitism. I think it’s pretty clear right now that these things are intertwined. And what he said at the end of that clip was, oh, you’re Jew, that no, that’s fine. Are you a Zionist though? And what people need to understand is that Zionism was taken away, was hijacked to mean something that it isn’t. What are you to say? It means Zionism means it’s a movement for Jewish liberation. So it’s technically only the existence of the state of Israel. So if you believe that Israel has the right to exist, if you believe that the Jewish people deserve a state, you’re a Zionist. That’s all it is. And it was taken to mean something completely different. So Zionism was taken to mean that it’s a movement that necessitates the genocide of Palestinians, and that is what people actually think and is not true. And the fact of the matter is that 95% of Jews are Zionists. So if you say no Zionists allowed, what you actually mean is no Jews allowed. Emmanuel, your thoughts about taking on this project, seeing what’s happening now and now knowing what you know about to be Jewish in this world and in America? Well, I not only took on the project, I had to take on the pain for a moment. True story. I was at dinner in West Hollywood Brian and I was walking out of this restaurant and I hear a murmur to my left again for those listening A true story And I I looked to my left assuming it will be a pleasantry exchange by maybe somebody who is familiar with my work. But as I look left they simply say to me, I hope they paid you well say excuse me, they say, I hope they paid you well Brian. I looked them in their eyes and I say who is they? And the individual looked me dead in my eyes and responded Zionists. And so I said, look, my objective is to pursue love, pursue peace, pursue unity. Diffusing the situation, I asked, Hey, what’s your name? The woman responded. You don’t deserve my name, I said God bless, and I walked out. It’s not just a matter of taking on this project, It’s also a matter of taking on the pain. Because in that moment, for the first time I felt scared driving home. Because I said, if this woman is willing to address me in this manner in a restaurant and Saturday night in Hollywood, what might she or her peers be willing to do? Now? I am so frustrated and heartbroken by where we are in society because there’s so much pain, there’s so much hurting. And it’s not just in the Jewish community, obviously, it’s in the Palestinian community as well. And my heart’s just really broken by all of the pain that’s currently existed. So I’ve been to Israel, but I but I I feel like I do know it as well as somebody could know it. Living in here and doing this on a daily basis for the last 25 years. By the way, with Emanuel Ocho and Noah Tishby, they have a brand new book. They’re both best selling authors together. They wrote Uncomfortable conversations with a Jew. So when you when you hear that this has become an educational thing for you to educate other people and now all of a sudden it becomes front and center and let me ask this as sensitive possible. If they were, if right now I went to Columbia and they were keeping black students off the campus, I think the President of the United States would have had a speech by 8:00 AM and he would say this has got to stop. We’re a racist country. This is more of a chance for some reason on some level, And you may not agree, Emmanuel, it’s OK. It’s relatively OK for the do it to the Jews. But if you do Hispanics, if you do it to blacks, it’s outrageous. Of course it’s outrageous. Period. Yeah. I think Noah says something very eloquent at the end of the book, Brian. And she says, I said, hey, can we ever stop anti-Semitism? And she said, Emmanuel, I don’t know if we can stop it, but we can make it go out of style. After the murder thought it was out of style. Yeah, it was. And it’s coming with kid just came back, you know after after the murder of George Floyd, at least in my experience, the racism that was extremely pervasive. We were trying to make it go out of style, you know, We were trying to make it go out of style clear. There were there was still racism, there was still prejudice, there was still marginalization, there’s still systemic oppression. But at least collectively, as a society for those next several months, we were trying to make it go out of style. Since then, things have kind of backtracked. But I do believe that like anti-Semitism, it’s in style. It’s almost not cool, but it’s accepted to some degree, no. Yeah, 100% it is accepted. And it feels like when the Jewish community is under attack, it’s fine because you’re using code words that are not jewel. I’m not saying this about the Jews. I’m saying this about the IDF. But what you have to understand is that anti-Semitism is not a simple racism. It’s a shape shifting conspiracy theory. And every few generation it changes one time it’s sometimes it’s. So it started out with and I you know we wrote about this in the book. So it started out in before. Before the days of Christ there was a peoplehood. There’s like the first account of anti-Semitism 200 years before the birth of Christ and people are talking about these these weird people. So it was peoplehood. Then after the birth of Christ it became a religious based anti-Semitism because of the whole the Jews killed Jesus. Then later on it became but you can convert out of it. So if you convert it out of Christianity to Christianity you were fine, you were saved. Then it shifted again to political and racial. So it was a racial based anti-Semitism and you can’t convert out of that. And it was used for political usage and later on it shifted to anti Zionism. The new form of anti-Semitism is anti Zionism. It became this thing that is completely acceptable. And I think you’re right, this would have been appalled. Everybody would have been appalled if it would have been any other marginalized community. But somehow when it it’s about the Jews, then it’s totally right. And also, we could use this moment, since everything’s out and about and we everyone dropped the gloves and dropped their mask except for those students. Maybe we can address it right at this core. I want to talk more about it, but I want to take a break so we don’t destroy the next segment because it’s not a podcast. So I can just go for three hours. Although we do make this a podcast. Help pick up the book Uncomfortable Conversations with the Jew. We’ll talk more in just a moment. Don’t move. Genocidal speech should not be acceptable. It might be acceptable in the United States constitutionally. I don’t think there’s any place for it on a university campus. I also think there hasn’t been any on the Columbia campus and the things that are brought forward as evidence for genocidal speech, like from the River to the Sea or intifada, they are not genocidal. Some river to the sea is not genocidal. I want you that. That is Professor Bruce Bobbins, who’s been teaching at Columbia for 27 years and he believes that he sits there with the students every single day in their little pup tents. Emmanuel Ocho is here and Noah Tishby is here. The name of the book is Uncomfortable Conversations with the Jew. No, I wanted you to take that on. What is the river to the sea means the river to the sea means ethnically cleansing the Jews from their ancestral land. So the river is the Jordan River. The sea is the Mediterranean Sea. And when you talk about from the river to the sea, that’s what you’re actually saying. But here’s the thing, this is not even half of what these kids are saying. When you chant we are all Hamas. When you point out a Jewish students and you say those are Azedine Al Qassam’s next target that’s incitement for violence 101. So I it’s very clear to anybody that’s watching that these demonstrations are not peaceful. There’s nothing peaceful about them. They’re violent. They’re aggressive. And if you are actually going to sell a a demonstration and you look like a Hamas fight fighter, a Hamas terrorist or you look like you’re being supported by the Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran, you might want to take a look at your your ’cause there. I think Emmanuel, I heard in the 60s, we were even both too young for that, that when there was civil rights marches, that 60 plus percent of the white people marching with blacks for freedom in the end of segregation and everything were Jewish. What happened to that relationship? That’s a phenomenal question. James Baldwin wrote a great, great piece. It was for the New York Times. I believe it was in 1968, and I’ll quoted the title, was Negroes are anti-Semitic because they’re anti white. And I think the dilemma I would say is that we’ve gotten to such a vitriolic point in society now where we’ve deduced Jewish people to being white. And if we see Jewish people as white, and the tension between black people and white people in this country is at an all time high, at least as it pertains to being recorded and publicized based upon social media, then you just have to group Jewish people into the bucket of oppressor, into the bucket of enemy, into the bucket of anti. And I think that is a part of the rub of what’s going on in society is we have now collectively grouped Jewish people, which are all, it’s an ethno religion, but we’ve just grouped them into the white bucket. And so if you have animosity towards white people, then you will now have animosity towards Jewish people ’cause you’ve put them in the white bucket. Interesting. Do you agree with that? Definitely I agree with that. And I also think that in terms of our cultural moment right now, it changed from judging quote UN quote, people based on their class, maybe money, maybe the the content of your character to oppressor and oppressed and melanin in the skin. And once you put these two buckets in and you look at world through these, this prism, the Jewish community does not fit into that. And to look at the Jewish community, first of all, the Jews, some Jews are white passing, right? So a lot of the Jews in America are white passing. But that’s not what the Jewish community internationally looks like in the Diaspora and definitely certainly not in Israel, right. And also the Jewish community was never afforded the same privileges that white that whites have been. The white Christians have been in in America and in the West. So our history, our culture, our backgrounds and our collective trauma does not fall into the way we judge these things today. How did you two find each other? All best. You’re both best selling authors. So how did you find each other? Great question. Well two years ago I reached out to Noah because I noticed some of the anti-Semitism that was in society. I saw the comments from Kanye West that you know, Hitler had some good ideas. I I saw the comments from Kyrie Irving obviously NBA superstar, he got suspended because of that. He did. He absolutely did. I saw so many of the comments and I said, you know what, there’s a lot of ignorance going around society. And I think ignorance itself, Brian, it’s unfortunate, but staying ignorant, that’s morally irresponsible. And so I said, you know what? I’m ignorant to some degree. Let me reach out to somebody who’s incredibly intelligent and not only incredibly intelligent but has committed their life to this matter. What did you think, Noah? Oh, I I cried. So did you know about Emanuel before? I I didn’t. I didn’t know about Emanuel before actually did because he was speaking up against anti-Semitism as a non member of the Jewish community which was such a unique thing. So at the time so this rise in anti-Semitism, the Jewish community has been feeling this. We know this was coming right. So everybody knew that it’s brewing underneath the surface. It became this pop culture thing of like oh don’t worry about it, it’s just Kanye, it’s just Jay Dave, it’s just Louis Farrakhan. Don’t don’t worry about it. But we knew this was coming and brewing and Emanuel reached out to me at a time when a lot of people in the Jewish community did not know about this. And he literally said I want you community to know that relief is on the way. And I remember I was standing in my bedroom and I just went and then October 7th happened and then October, what happened to the project? After on October 7th and after after October 7th, the project fell apart. The book and comfortable conversations with the Jew. We talk about it. Chapter 16 is titled How This book Almost Didn’t Happen. Chapter one is titled How the book did Happen. No, and I just had a sharp disagreement. We vehemently disagreed on a few subject matters. But what I love, Brian, is that that is the beauty of society. You can disagree, like you don’t have to agree on everything. The book, we do not agree on a lot of things. It’s me challenging, it’s Noah educating, it’s me pushing back. Hey, why? Why did Jews kill Jesus as a chapter title? Are Jewish people white? Let’s talk about the privilege that Jewish people have had. Let’s talk about Zionism, anti Zionism. So the book fell apart. But then when we came back together, we said, you know what? If we can get through this, we can get through anything. We can get through everything. And I hope that everyone listening realizes I don’t have to agree with somebody all the time. But where respect exists, where love exists, then disagreement can’t prevent real quick. Where do you disagree? It’s not we disagreed the the issue that happened was right after October 7th and I don’t want to give it out too much. It’s again, it’s in it’s in the book. It’s called how this book almost didn’t happen and and people are telling us that they that particular moment is where everything becomes very intense and very real. And we even were asked how are we still friends after it, which I loved, because of course we are, because that’s because the only way out is through. After October 7th, Emmanuel reached out to me and was very supportive. And then he asked me to do his show, Uncomfortable conversations with Emmanuel Acho. And I did it and I didn’t realize that he was going to have somebody else on the show, which is not the fact that she’s Palestinian is is great. That’s not the issue. The issue is that she’s very extreme. And it was one of these moments of of I I obviously believe in freedom of speech to the outmost extent until it calls for my obliteration, until it calls for me to. I’m not for jihadism. I’m very clearly not for that. And yeah, that’s where we had, we had a strong disagreement and after the book fell apart, we decided to put it in the book. And we’re very happy we did that. Emmanuel Archo, Noah Tishby, thanks so much. Go up, pick up their book. They’re both best selling authors. This is going to be a huge hit. Uncomfortable conversations with the Jew. It was great talking to you. I just need four more hours. I’ll talk to you again. Guys, thank you so much. Thank you. Back in a moment.